Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review

[Dj7675]

Again I'll say I always measure but too much emphasis on measurements here vs the quality of sound is my opinion. Measurements alone don't get you great sound it's just a fact that seems to elude folks. Perhaps I have just been exposed to so many different systems I know what to listen for but we all know how imaging, separation and liveliness sound or we should know the difference I'll say. For the Subs I'll assume since I have 3 independent Subwoofers connected to my 90 I'm seeing a huge benefit on the phase matching that I would never get with Dirac or Marantz or Denon, it's just not there for those brands and I can revise it so using a DSP for subs makes zero sense in my case, clean tight bass is the result if you get yourself in front of the gear and use the features and not stall yourself out on the perfect curve mentality.

Phase “matching” is not exclusive to ARC G. The reason Dirac DLBC exists primarily is because of just this reason. See https://www.dirac.com/live/bass-control/ and look at “Why DLBC is needed”. Compatible Marantz and Denon units can be upgraded to include Dirac/DLBC. One of the nice things about ARC G is that there is no additional cost. But claiming it doesn’t do phase adjustments between speakers/subs is not factually correct.
Measurements may not get you great sound, but they are quite useful in verifying the EQ system is doing what it claims.
And Dirac now goes one step further with Dirac ART where it uses support speakers and cancellation for EQ. It is widely expected that at some point this year that some Denon/Marantz models will also get Dirac ART. I have 4 subs with Dirac ART (Stormaudio MK2) in a 9.4.7 system and it works quite well. What is funny is I am stuck getting REW going at the moment, so I haven’t been able to confirm much with actual measurements hopefully next week. I expect that it will measure well (including decay time) but I can’t say for sure yet. But even though it sounds great to me, I still feel it is necessary to measure and confirm as all of these things are fallible like any software/hardware/firmware can be. Anyway, glad you are enjoying your system and have no doubt it sounds great.

 

[hwest]

Phase “matching” is not exclusive to ARC G. The reason Dirac DLBC exists primarily is because of just this reason. See https://www.dirac.com/live/bass-control/ and look at “Why DLBC is needed”. Compatible Marantz and Denon units can be upgraded to include Dirac/DLBC. One of the nice things about ARC G is that there is no additional cost. But claiming it doesn’t do phase adjustments between speakers/subs is not factually correct.
Measurements may not get you great sound, but they are quite useful in verifying the EQ system is doing what it claims.
And Dirac now goes one step further with Dirac ART where it uses support speakers and cancellation for EQ. It is widely expected that at some point this year that some Denon/Marantz models will also get Dirac ART. I have 4 subs with Dirac ART (Stormaudio MK2) in a 9.4.7 system and it works quite well. What is funny is I am stuck getting REW going at the moment, so I haven’t been able to confirm much with actual measurements hopefully next week. I expect that it will measure well (including decay time) but I can’t say for sure yet. But even though it sounds great to me, I still feel it is necessary to measure and confirm as all of these things are fallible like any software/hardware/firmware can be. Anyway, glad you are enjoying your system and have no doubt it sounds great.

Can you do 4 independent subs and mix those to the mains, there is a little magic to ARC it blends in the mains like I've never seen.

 

[Dj7675]

Can you do 4 independent subs and mix those to the mains, there is a little magic to ARC it blends in the mains like I've never seen.

That is exactly how DLBC and ART works. I believe ART too be quite a bit better because there are no crossovers per se… you define the frequency range you want the subs to support (as well as other speakers) and ART will set the levels/slope and compute the support speaker cancellation frequencies and levels. Without being constricted by traditional crossover slopes the blending is quite remarkable. Even with DLBC there were issues/some dips in speaker main response between 100-150hz unless I set crossover frequency higher than I wanted to. The few measurements I was able to take shows that gone. But I don’t want to pollute this thread anymore than I have about the AV10 (although I think it relates someowhat since isounds like it will get ART).

 

[Oddball]

That is exactly how DLBC and ART works. I believe ART too be quite a bit better because there are no crossovers per se… you define the frequency range you want the subs to support (as well as other speakers) and ART will set the levels/slope and compute the support speaker cancellation frequencies and levels. Without being constricted by traditional crossover slopes the blending is quite remarkable. Even with DLBC there were issues/some dips in speaker main response between 100-150hz unless I set crossover frequency higher than I wanted to. The few measurements I was able to take shows that gone. But I don’t want to pollute this thread anymore than I have about the AV10 (although I think it relates someowhat since isounds like it will get ART).

I would imagine that a lot of AV-10 owners are quite excited about ART and therefore ART comments seem pretty relevant to this thread. As far as I am concerned - keep them coming.

Just a question re Storm ART. As I understand Storm (at least some models) could support more than 4 independent subs, so would ART implementation on storm also be able to support more than 4 independent subs?

 

[peng]

Can you do 4 independent subs and mix those to the mains, there is a little magic to ARC it blends in the mains like I've never seen.

In my experience, even with just two independent subs, DL with just BC but no ART, or Audyssey SubEQ HT tweaked with the app, can integrates the subs and mains better than ARC Genesis (also tweaked, much worse if not tweaked manually), much better actually, but is based on REW graphs, i.e. measurements. Subjectively, my hearing discernibility is not good enough to tell which one "sounds better". Those who keep thinking their ARC G does better but would not bother checking with measurements such as by REW, are actually the lucky one imo, because they naturally are getting the benefit of bias, placebo effects etc., without knowing it so again, that's great for them. Facts sometimes hurt, so.. As @Dj7675 observed, it is easy to find REW measurements posted by RC users, but that's mostly from DL and Audyssey users, very few from ARC G users, most seems to have great faith, that they don't think it is necessary to check with measurements. Again, happy for them.

 

[Dj7675]

I would imagine that a lot of AV-10 owners are quite excited about ART and therefore ART comments seem pretty relevant to this thread. As far as I am concerned - keep them coming.

Just a question re Storm ART. As I understand Storm (at least some models) could support more than 4 independent subs, so would ART implementation on storm also be able to support more than 4 independent subs?

Yes. I don’t think there is a limit on the number of subs. You are just limited on the number of channels you have. I have 24 channels to play with.

 

[peng]

If I owned the AV10, or even the C30, or even the AVR-X6800H, my excitement would be about the ability to try/use use XT32/SubEQ HT and DLBC (even without ART) and compare them back and forth. It is the only device I know of that has two very competent RC, yes it would cost extra $s to buy the DLBC license and the $20/or $200 Audyssey app, but I think to a lot of people it is worth it.

 

[Oddball]

If I owned the AV10, or even the C30, or even the AVR-X6800H, my excitement would be about the ability to try/use use XT32/SubEQ HT and DLBC (even without ART) and compare them back and forth. It is the only device I know of that has two very competent RC, yes it would cost extra $s to buy the DLBC license and the $20/or $200 Audyssey app, but I think to a lot of people it is worth it.

That was my plan, but as lots of plans, it got delayed. Had AV-10 for 4 months and still not done with Audy. It's a new big loft and not done with placing 4 subs in ideal position. Also, have lots of vibrations under 30-ish hz as approaching 100dB (big windows, kitchen, built in closets), so recently gave up on tectonic bass and now optimizing SPL and response above that range, as will have to keep the low end a bit tamed. Just not enough time for tweaking, unfortunately. I am still planning to do that though.

At conceptual level, I can imagine that DLBC will not work best for my system and will not be able to achieve the low end SPL and smoothness of response as Audy - but that is when engaging double and triple bass options. By design, Audy can use towers-all-around setup to a greater extent as DLBC is designed around the standard THX concept of crossover and division of work between bed/atmos channels and subs. Audy can do overlap and as of recent distribute LFE to the towers. So not really a fair game for big setups as concept is completely different. Not sure what ART will eventually do, but I would say that Audy design has some aspects of poor man's ART. Based on some previous experiences, I would expect DLBC to best Audy in "normal" crossover setup without going further down the Audy rabbit hole. Obviously just a semi-educated speculation, nothing real to support it so not really worth much...

 

[dlaloum]

If I owned the AV10, or even the C30, or even the AVR-X6800H, my excitement would be about the ability to try/use use XT32/SubEQ HT and DLBC (even without ART) and compare them back and forth. It is the only device I know of that has two very competent RC, yes it would cost extra $s to buy the DLBC license and the $20/or $200 Audyssey app, but I think to a lot of people it is worth it.

or even the X3800...

 

[Dj7675]

Not sure what ART will eventually do, but I would say that Audy design has some aspects of poor man's ART

ART is fundamentally different in how it does EQ (below 150hz). It uses support speakers (and subs) to cancel out resonances.

 

[Oddball]

ART is fundamentally different in how it does EQ (below 150hz). It uses support speakers (and subs) to cancel out resonances.

Absolutely, the reference was to signify that both approaches use speakers capable of supporting each other as opposed to just simply blending them around the crossover frequency. "Poor" is the reference that ART does it differently and more appropriate.

BTW, can you still use the capabilities of Storm bass management module (Storm Audio Expert Bass Management) with ART, or some functions are not available with ART (such as PEQ filters and various bass routing options)? The relevance is also to AV-10 as to expectations how D&M will implement ART.

 

[peng]

or even the X3800...

Sure, but if I had the $1,700 X3800H or much less based on street price, I would not likely spend a $1,000 to get all the licenses (hypothetically speaking only), would just use the $20 app and be happy with Audyssey. That is, unless the DL licenses are transferrable if I upgrade to a higher model such as the X6800H or C30 later, and that is possible I assume...

 

[Dj7675]

BTW, can you still use the capabilities of Storm bass management module (Storm Audio Expert Bass Management) with ART, or some functions are not available with ART (such as PEQ filters and various bass routing options)? The relevance is also to AV-10 as to expectations how D&M will implement ART.

You cannot use expert bass management with ART, but you can use PEQ before and after Dirac.

 

[IamJF]

Sure, but if I had the $1,700 X3800H or much less based on street price, I would not likely spend a $1,000 to get all the licenses (hypothetically speaking only), would just use the $20 app and be happy with Audyssey. That is, unless the DL licenses are transferrable if I upgrade to a higher model such as the X6800H or C30 later, and that is possible I assume...

On the other side ... getting a preamp with Dirac ART for under 3000,- ... that's a steal in home cinema world!
Not being able to transfer and manage licenses is a huge problem to be honest. How is the state here?

 

[CCCC]

In my experience, even with just two independent subs, DL with just BC but no ART, or Audyssey SubEQ HT tweaked with the app, can integrates the subs and mains better than ARC Genesis (also tweaked, much worse if not tweaked manually), much better actually, but is based on REW graphs, i.e. measurements. Subjectively, my hearing discernibility is not good enough to tell which one "sounds better". Those who keep thinking their ARC G does better but would not bother checking with measurements such as by REW, are actually the lucky one imo, because they naturally are getting the benefit of bias, placebo effects etc., without knowing it so again, that's great for them. Facts sometimes hurt, so.. As @Dj7675 observed, it is easy to find REW measurements posted by RC users, but that's mostly from DL and Audyssey users, very few from ARC G users, most seems to have great faith, that they don't think it is necessary to check with measurements. Again, happy for them.

Will Dirac ART be a 3rd layer of room correction or will it replace DL or even DL+DLBC?

 

[broncogr]

Latest HEOS app and firmware update available - Changelog (10.04.2024)
Please find below the changelogs for the HEOS app and firmware:
Firmware from 10.04.2024 (U33)

HEOS iOS App: 3.19.150
HEOS Android App / Kindle Fire App: 3.19.161
HEOS Firmware: 3.19.211

• New Feature: Tidal Hi-Res FLAC 24bit/192khz now available via the HEOS app
• Fixed: Spotify podcasts randomly skipping to the next track
• Fixed: Samsung and LG TVs are experiencing sound clipping every couple of seconds when using eARC
• Fixed: If the "Distance FL" entry is changed in Dirac profile #1, then Dirac profile #2 is selected, then profile #1 is selected again, the value of "Distance FL" is reset to a default value.
• Fixed: Changing the running time of the rear high in memory location 1 after the Dirac calibration, they are retained even when unit is switched off. calling up another memory location and then switching back to the first memory location, the two rear high corrected values are gone.
• Fixed: When playing DAB+ from the TUNER source, the current track is not updated on the TV screen. The track is updated on the internal display of the device.
• Fixed: "Bluetooth Pairing..." indication is not displayed and Bluetooth pairing was not possible.
• Fixed: No audio when grouping HEOS Mini-system RCD-N12 with DENON HOME speakers using CD as source.
• Fixed: While watching TV using the Denon AVR for my surround sound with fire TV, the input will randomly switch to HEOS as the source

To support "UK-PSTI (Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure)", change "Advanced Menu" in "Web Control" to "CI Menu"

Other bugfixes and performance improvements

 

[Oddball]

Will Dirac ART be a 3rd layer of room correction or will it replace DL or even DL+DLBC?

For D&M products, once ART becomes available, you will need to have all three products/modules to enable ART - DL, DLBC and ART. In terms of bass management options, one can choose ART or DLBC, not both. This is consistent with older Storm products that already had DL+DLBC and ART was available as upgrade option for $299. It is interesting that ART is the least expensive Dirac module. Hopefully that would not be indication of its worth.

 

[IamJF]

Dirac prices are ... interesting. These module upgrading is a little confusing.
Hope they do a good positioned complete bundle for an ART upgrade for these "lower cost" Denon ad Marantz amps.

 

[CCCC]

For D&M products, once ART becomes available, you will need to have all three products/modules to enable ART - DL, DLBC and ART. In terms of bass management options, one can choose ART or DLBC, not both. This is consistent with older Storm products that already had DL+DLBC and ART was available as upgrade option for $299. It is interesting that ART is the least expensive Dirac module. Hopefully that would not be indication of its worth.

Well, ART is the least expensive but it obliges you to have purchased before DL and DLBC (according to your words) even if you cannot use DLBC when you choose ART for BC

 

[Oddball]

Well, ART is the least expensive but it obliges you to have purchased before DL and DLBC (according to your words) even if you cannot use DLBC when you choose ART for BC

That is how pricing was for Storm. Don’t see why it would be any better for D&M. Storm was actually developing ART with Dirac on exclusive basis.

Like anything else in the audio realm, some will think $1k for ART on Marantz is a steal and swear that they never heard anything even close, and some will be regretting the investment as for whatever reason it might have not worked in their room/system. And then all the options in between.

We have to hear it to believe it. And it will require some hours of tweaking in addition to the hard cash investment.