I'm not familiar with that devise, but it could be almost anything. what gets used almost always comes down to cost, use case and user expectations!
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Digital Volume Infinite Encoders slow and need many rotations. Why is that?
- Thread starter DrSpan
- Start date
I'm not familiar with that devise, but it could be almost anything. what gets used almost always comes down to cost, use case and user expectations!
- Thread Starter
- #82
Sorry, i forget that with music making i belong to a minority….
Its an analog synthesizer from Korg with a digital interface (i suppose) in order to be able to store presets-data.
I just thought of its encoders cause i am looking at it right now and was wondering what kind of step resolution they would allow as the haptic -tactile feel is like
they feel completely analog. Smooth resistance and i cant feel mechanical steps or any „click“ noise when using them. The only „step“ feeling ones are the infinite rotation ones on it. It has both types
If i could have a knob like this guiding a digital volume i would be happy
Do you have any counter argument as to "why i should not“ order a passive balanced volume controller?
- Thread Starter
- #83
I am searching out of curiosity but come across too many results and am not sure i am seing it right. So my question to you is,
What is the highest resolution encoder currently available in your knowledge?
solderdude
Grand Contributor
The highest resolution would be an optical encoder but this requires additional electronics (and thus power) if it must interface with a mechanical encoder (slide contacts).
Optical encoders (direction encoders) with large discs seem to be what's needed. The one you use now simply has too little contact points per rotation for your purpose.
It seems the volume control was intended to adjust in very small steps.
You would either need on of those or live with the way the encoder is handled in the device that has that encoder input.
Is it an encoder designed for that device or just an encoder you liked and had the same connection (assuming it is an external encoder)
Optical encoders (direction encoders) with large discs seem to be what's needed. The one you use now simply has too little contact points per rotation for your purpose.
It seems the volume control was intended to adjust in very small steps.
You would either need on of those or live with the way the encoder is handled in the device that has that encoder input.
Is it an encoder designed for that device or just an encoder you liked and had the same connection (assuming it is an external encoder)
KSTR
Major Contributor
You meant infinite, I guess?
Those are so-called Endless Rotary Potentiometers which are continuous analog encoders, basically having one sine- and one cosine-coded wiper characteristic (actually, it's simple triangle slopes).
- Thread Starter
- #86
Thanks for that.
"The one you use now simply has too little contact points per rotation for your purpose“ thats exactly what i concluded. The way i see it with my limited technical knowledge on the subject is that the used encoder has a small resolution in one rotation so in order to compensate this they „solve“ it by multiple rotations and assigning smaller gain increments to each step ?
What is the highest resolution Encoder available (in this architecture if we are not going to Optical solutions) ? 48 Steps? More?
So i also came across optical encoders this morning while searching. But it is above what i can understand without studying a l lot more on the subject.
I am not trying to change history. Just want a better volume control. I ordered a passive controller as a short term „solution“ cause i am getting frustrated by this
Flex (and the Motu) in this regard.
Ps: I pulled off the Flex knob and see the encoder. Not that i have seen many encoders but this looks rather cheap i would say with my amateur eyes
- Thread Starter
- #87
Hi.
No. I think i need to describe it better.
It has 2 kinds of Encoders. It has 2 Infinite encoders (which feel as bad as the flex knob) and 26 Finite encoders which also have a white Line so you can see where it currently is set to.
The Finite ones dont go 360deg . Would say more around 350-360deg if i had to guess from Start to End
The Finite rotation ones seem to have an incredible (for me) resolution. For example the „Pitch“ knob. I can see the Semitones changing on the display.
So i started counting how many steps it makes. I started slowly turning the knob and at 1/2 of the rotation-travel i counted +/- 85-ish increments when i arrived at 12` clock , at which point i lost count . It is hard to keep track cause there was so many steps . they where easily more than 80 increments but i lost count at some points. So the knob can theoretically to 160-170 „steps“ of anything you apply to it i guess? Also they go -1200 semitones to +1200semi every time so the end and start point are always spot on
Also when turning you dont feel Steps or anything. It feels like an old analog Potentiometer with nice resistance.
So what kind of thing are we talking here?
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solderdude
Grand Contributor
Most cheap incremental rotary encoders are 10 to 20 PPR but by the looks of if you may need at least 50 to 100PPR.
I assume a 2-channel one.
This will bring you in the industrial type of encoders which are large in size (they have to be), expensive and are just parts so no enclosure or anything.
You should figure out how many steps per rotation you have now.
- Thread Starter
- #89
"You should figure out how many steps per rotation you have now.“
If i am not mistaking i just counted 20 positions for one 360 Rotation
Btw, did you read my comment above yours about my Korg synth? How do the encoders i describe there work? It has around 160-170 positions but dont have steps
solderdude
Grand Contributor
Most likely they are optical and not probably not incremental but absolute type when they 'remember' their positions.
20 would be pretty typical. There might be some 36PPR ones around that could be a drop-in replacement (but may not have the same shaft) but requires soldering.
That said... 36PPR still means quite a lot of rotations.
The ones with several hundred PPR are big, expensive and industrial encoders (so no enclosure etc).
Don't know if any external volume controls exist that have this resolution (steps/PPR).
20 would be pretty typical. There might be some 36PPR ones around that could be a drop-in replacement (but may not have the same shaft) but requires soldering.
That said... 36PPR still means quite a lot of rotations.
The ones with several hundred PPR are big, expensive and industrial encoders (so no enclosure etc).
Don't know if any external volume controls exist that have this resolution (steps/PPR).
As @solderdude said they can be very very high. it all comes down to the type and the use case.
Its not un common in industrial automation for find rotary encoders in the thousands of PPR.
for example:
- Thread Starter
- #92
Impressive! 5000ppr . Jesus …..
I think this hovever would significantly raise the cost. I meant it costs almost 1/2 of the Flex. Maybe 5000ppm overkill ?
Seing this makes me think that if the Flex goes -127,5 to 0db in 0,5db steps that means 255 steps in one rotation would be able to use all the increments
it curently uses. Or am i thinking it wrong?
1) Ok hypothetical question. Lets say i buy this. Then i would solder it as a replacement for the currently installed knob i suppose?
However it would need a whole software rewrite wouldn`t it?
2) What are the counter arguments on implementing something like the Korg Encoder i mentioned, as a Volume controller ?
more complicated than that
- how much power does the encoder need and what's is the output
- can the software be rewritten
- can the hardware the output of the encoder
- etc etc
- Thread Starter
- #94
OK so it’s nice in theory, but in short, not something I could not do in a way
Yea, you would need a lot of information that won't be easy to come by.
solderdude
Grand Contributor
A 500ppm is probably more suited.
I doubt the application is designed for this encoder though.
It probably only detects 2 switches and this encoder requires an external voltage.
I doubt the application is designed for this encoder though.
It probably only detects 2 switches and this encoder requires an external voltage.
I think it might be feasible (but probably not easy) to build a remote volume control with this knob, not changing the stock knob.
But, as I told you in the other thread, be aware that if the new knob is absolute position and not motorised, you might have sudden large volume changes whenever a memory volume setting of the flex comes up and then you use the knob, if you turn the knob while the flex is off or if one day you use the remote. And this is also true if you substitute the stock knob.
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My favorite interface/DAC volume control is the MOTU M4. It is a single rotation, with a clearly marked line on the knob with hard stops. I'm not sure about other's use but for me, I use the interface on a PC that browses the internet as well as streams music. The sometimes huge differences in volume of various videos requires a constant use of the volume. I literally hate the multi turn designs that don't have hard stops. If something comes up that is very high in volume, I want to be able to quickly and mindlessly lower it with a quick twist of the knob. There is nothing like having a near field system with a powerful amplifier and a volume control that takes multiple turns to lower it.
I have several "higher performing" DACs that have typical multi-rotation volume controls and they sit in a drawer...
I have several "higher performing" DACs that have typical multi-rotation volume controls and they sit in a drawer...
- Thread Starter
- #99
Man at last someone who understands me…..
I am mixing music and have to adjust the volume dozens to hundreds of times in a few hours depending on the project.
I need for example to be able to raise the volume directly and fast in order to „zoom in acoustically“ when searching for backround noise on a channel . or listening to Delta signals of plugins, or listen to how the mix behaves in high volumes vor a few seconds.
People can`t imagine how bad infinite encoders are for this i think this is why they talk as if its the perfect solution.
That said…… WHaaaaat? The M4 has single rotation knob? !!! My Ultralite Mk5 takes 5-6 full rotations to do that .
I owned all Ultralites since Mk3 and always hated the Knob (and placement exactly above the headphone socket…)
Now you make me considering replacing the Ultralite with the M4 simply for this reason alone….
"higher performing" DACs that have typical multi-rotation volume controls“. I know EXACTLY what you mean.
Today i connected an old Sm Nano Patch passive volume controller i had in the drawer for years and put it before the Flex.
Cant believe that i even use this again.
Does it degrade the sound a bit? Yes
Am i willing to accept this for now to have a bit of piece of mind? Definitely
Here are some pictures. I had to „modify“ the enclosure a bit so i have the knob in the front and also in order to fit it where it has to go.
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KSTR
Major Contributor
OK, I see.
I would guess those are just good quality potentiometers, and the voltage is read out by an ADC and processed in software with lots of filtering etc... then you can easily resolve 2deg and it doesn't have any unstable/jumpy feel to it.
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