Digital Volume Infinite Encoders slow and need many rotations. Why is that?

[DrSpan]

OK, I see.
I would guess those are just good quality potentiometers, and the voltage is read out by an ADC and processed in software with lots of filtering etc... then you can easily resolve 2deg and it doesn't have any unstable/jumpy feel to it.

"the voltage is read out by an ADC“. sounds like an elegant solution to me. Especially since i see its super stable and high resolution of steps

That said , for some reason i seem to belong to a small minority with my dislike of infinite low resolution encoders that takes multiple revolutions
to do what we could do in one move dfor decades now.
But i guess if you can`t beat them,, avoid them

 

[TurtlePaul]

"the voltage is read out by an ADC“. sounds like an elegant solution to me. Especially since i see its super stable and high resolution of steps

The nice thing about this is that they can use a single gang linear pot - no channel imbalance from dual gang pots and doesn’t have the non-linearity issues at low volume levels of logarithmic pots.

 

[DrSpan]

The nice thing about this is that they can use a single gang linear pot - no channel imbalance from dual gang pots and doesn’t have the non-linearity issues at low volume levels of logarithmic pots.

So why does not everyone use this instead of infinite encoders for volume control ?
Am i missing something? This would be the most awesome volume control

Unless there is some reason that escapes my knowledge , which can easily happen

 

[DWPress]

At least MiniDSP is actually putting volume knobs and visual cues on their gear now....

 

[MCH]

So why does not everyone use this instead of infinite encoders for volume control ?
Am i missing something? This would be the most awesome volume control

Unless there is some reason that escapes my knowledge , which can easily happen

Because, as I explained to you two times already, the Motu M4 does not have remote control nor any other way of changing the volume other than the knob, then, it can use a regular single turn not motorised potentiometer. Otherwise, it can not. The flex, can not use this.

 

[DLS79]

Man at last someone who understands me…..
I am mixing music and have to adjust the volume dozens to hundreds of times in a few hours depending on the project.
I need for example to be able to raise the volume directly and fast in order to „zoom in acoustically“ when searching for backround noise on a channel . or listening to Delta signals of plugins, or listen to how the mix behaves in high volumes vor a few seconds.

I must have missed the mixing part earlier.

I assume you're using a NLE, does what your using not support an external control/console/interface?

for example like any of these

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/midi-control-surfaces-fader-controllers/ci/14841

The few people I know that do professional audio work all use one, mainly because they want old school linear faders.

 

[DrSpan]

Because, as I explained to you two times already, the Motu M4 does not have remote control nor any other way of changing the volume other than the knob, then, it can use a regular single turn not motorised potentiometer. Otherwise, it can not. The flex, can not use this.

I am sorry but i cant possibly remember each sentence of each of the dozens of faceless individuals i have conversations with every day.
If you do props to you. I have an average to bad memory .
I had to look it up to even remember what you said. I could only find one time you explained btw unless i missed something

First of all never said i am expecting the Motu to have a Remote or to solve everything in the world. I don`t care about remotes Either way. If i found remotes to be a solution i could use the Flex remote. You started talking about remotes if i remember correctly.
Also i don`t expect MiniDsp to say „Hey lets solder a better knob to the Flex“ cause a guy dislikes it. I am talking about the future with people that understand the subject even if we dont all agree on everything. . MiniDsp couldn`t care less what i believe or want. They explain to me in their answer that it is not possible in one Rotation because i will
"burn my speakers“. I think its a dead end talking to them in my case.

Secondly i said "So why does not everyone use this instead of infinite encoders for volume control ?“ Everyone as in, Why don`t all developers use a solution
like the Korg Minilogue does instead of the solution of using a low resolution encoder which has to then be turned 100000000 times in order to achieve increment fine adjustement-step resolution with no reference as to what value the Volume is at if you dont look at numbers on a display all the time and in my line of work cant use it blindly cause Tactile feedback of position is irrelevant as it could be any value , a display that automatically goes dark after a few seconds, all of this making something as trivial as Volume up and down such a ridiculously ineffective and long process and Haptically worse than any potentiometer based Volume knob in history.

And lastly lets say everyone wants to have a remote. There have been remote controlled ,amplifiers with motorized volume since the 90`s . Are you telling me it is not possible to Motorize a simple potentiometer in 2024? Hell there has been even a motorized Synthesizer by now.

I don`t know how else to describe it. Forget about it

 

[DrSpan]

I must have missed the mixing part earlier.

I assume you're using a NLE, does what your using not support an external control/console/interface?

for example like any of these

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/midi-control-surfaces-fader-controllers/ci/14841

The few people I know that do professional audio work all use one, mainly because they want old school linear faders.

Don`t worry my friend. Nobody can not miss something on the way. Its a huge river of information. All good.

No i don`t use NLE. I tried a few over the years and always ended up not using them. I gave them 4-5 chances and it organically never survived.
"because they want old school linear faders.“ I work in the movies and i know sound recordists-mixers who use Linear and others Rotary mixers cause it takes less space.
It depends on the projects and where you work. If you are in a helicopter faders are harder to use. If you are in tight spaces also.
So there is no one solution for every case in my experience at least from what i see collegues do.

I don`t mind mixing completely with the laptop especially since i travel a lot and learned to work like this.
if i go to a studio that has one i might connect but it is very rare that i need anything external in this aspect. Much less that can go wrong like this
at least for my workflow.
However when i am at home i use the Flex for everything. It is the last link before the speaker system. If it was a „Normal Stereo system“ it would basically be the Pre Amp so in short , the Volume control.
So this is all i am missing. Everytrhing else is perfect with the Flex. It has pristine sound quality
I use the Motu Mk5 as the Primary Processor for the Audio processing, Mixing, Making music, Mastering etc.
When i am at home i then go via Toslink into the Flex and use the Flex volume logically which is driving the monitors and sub.
I wanted to try out DSP for the speakers. And it is awesome.
However before i was going Analog Balanced from Mk5 to an Spl 2Control Volume controller and the ease of use whenever i need to adjust Volume multiple times
comparing the Divine volume knob on the Spl to the wobbly sh… Encoder of the Flex with its 19 rotations …. Well lets say its day and night.

i however totally get that the majority of people finds what i say weird because they simply can`t imagine how bad it is if you have to adjust multiple times a day
to have such a laggy translation if that makes sense

 

[KSTR]

That said , for some reason i seem to belong to a small minority with my dislike of infinite low resolution encoders that takes multiple revolutions
to do what we could do in one move dfor decades now.

Often, encoders are multi-function, used to control several things and then you need an incremental output, not an absolute position.
If an encoder is really used for volume control only (fixed function) and needs like 20turns I do certainly agree that's not user friendly and bad design because with a little programming effort you can make stepped encoders behave "more naturally", even make their behavior user-selectable so everybody can be happy ;-)

 

[DrSpan]

Often, encoders are multi-function, used to control several things and then you need an incremental output, not an absolute position.
If an encoder is really used for volume control only (fixed function) and needs like 20turns I do certainly agree that's not user friendly and bad design because with a little programming effort you can make stepped encoders behave "more naturally", even make their behavior user-selectable so everybody can be happy ;-)

Exactly! "Often, encoders are multi-function“ you are right.
This one also is multi. However same as it has been proven that there is no such thing as „multitasking“ in humans but rather means „doing many things simultaneously
in a worse way that doing them individually“ same this multitasking knob is doing a little bit of everything and a very bad implementation of "Haptic fine Motorics“

Don`t see it happening though. Part of their answer:
"I think that we very much understood.. All good.
I don't think that we got an answer as to why you need to go from 0dB = muted to 100% as a single turn though. That is the one we're not sure to understand.
That's a level of granularity on single 360deg turn that will burn through speakers.. i.e. way too many dB change per a tiny move. I'm not sure if our explanation got understood from our side? „
and
"It's not a technical limitation but your application being so unique and the likelyhood of such firmware in the hands of customer (1click = 3-10dB) being too dangerous for speakers I'm afraid. That's the point we're making. „

So i send a long reply and decided to rest my case.
They seem to be protecting me from blowing up my speakers which is my favorite Hobby cause i need protection…..

Also i think the 20 step encoder build in ios not worth the effort. Would be nice though if they present a better solution in the next models.

I sometimes have the feeling that i am talking to people who literally never touched an analog volume knob so i figure it must be hard for them to understand how much better
it works mechanically (apart from the technical values and measurements which of course are much better in digital solutions) cause all i get is technical measurements but not one of them says „yeah i know. It feels better but in the digital realm is not that easy to implement yet“ or something like this

 

[KSTR]

I sometimes have the feeling that i am talking to people who literally never touched an analog volume knob...

Well, in old-school precision laboratory gear you will often find 10-turn analog potentiometers so the issue is not exactly new ;-)

As for current encoder algorithms, there is no excuse for sloppy programming. Often something as brutally simple as a coarse/fine selector switch would do...

 

[nagster]

So today i measured my Dsp Volume Knob.

I takes 19….. in words Nineteen Rotations to go from absolute silence to maximum output.

Is it technically not possible to have a good Finite encoder where you can regulate volume in 1 rotation like it always was possible until
it became digital ?

No. It is possible.
For example, molamola makua is about 300 degrees from 7 o'clock to 5 o'clock.
The audio signal is analog rather than digital, but the controls will likely be similar. There is no problem with reaction speed. (If turn it extremely fast, the volume change will be delayed.) The feel of turning the knob isn't bad either. It is a non-click type and rotates smoothly.
Volume adjustment is relay switching type, remote control is infrared and Bluetooth. When turn the knob, will hear the relay switching. (This is from inside the makua. The noise is not from the speakers.)
As far as I know, this is a relay-switchable volume that has the best feel of operation.
Note: However, this opinion is based on me, who does not like infinite rotation volume.

 

[nagster]

The 9310 volume controller for genelec GLM is also a non-click rotating type with approximately 300 degrees. The feel of this is also smooth.

9310B Wired Volume Controller - Genelec.com

The Genelec 9310B Volume Controller provides stylish wired volume control for all SAM studio monitors connected to the GLM Network Adapter.

www.genelec.com

 

[Sokel]

Who said that analog pots are rough and imprecise?
I can and I do adjust the Alps pot of my pre withing mV,like from 100mV to 101mV (yes,it's when I adjust unity gain with my x-over,or adjust levels,it's OCD to start from round numbers and you don't loose count if you do it all the time,don't laugh )

(and yes,it takes very fine movement )

Edit:and it's not even a full turn one,it goes from 7 to 5 'o clock range.

 

[Alexander Gödde]

Yep. Getting acceleration right is fiddly, and doesn't really add to the spec sheet, so implementing it is most often skipped to save time and effort.

Because it is poorly programmed.

 

[MAB]

So today i measured my Dsp Volume Knob.

I takes 19….. in words Nineteen Rotations to go from absolute silence to maximum output.

Is it technically not possible to have a good Finite encoder where you can regulate volume in 1 rotation like it always was possible until
it became digital ?

Perhaps this has already been pointed out... Your Flex has asymmetric velocity-sensitive volume, it's programmed that way on purpose, it's a feature that many find useful.
The volume can be defeated by rotating the control counterclockwise rapidly in less than turn.
Increasing the volume is not velocity-sensitive, this is a safety feature.
May not be to your liking, but it is on purpose. Many devices feature velocity sensitive volume, some like it, some don't. Not many products take the risk on velocity-sensitive increase.

 

[DrSpan]

Well, in old-school precision laboratory gear you will often find 10-turn analog potentiometers so the issue is not exactly new ;-)

As for current encoder algorithms, there is no excuse for sloppy programming. Often something as brutally simple as a coarse/fine selector switch would do...

I only know amplifiers. So regarding this i have literally never had issues with analog potentiometers in order to adjust volume for 40 years now.
I simply never ever thought „oh i need more resolution „ or „oh my . what a bad channel separation“. you always had awesome sounding amps and bad ones.

It was only now that i sold the Spl 2Control and thought i will „simply replace it“ with the Flex that caught me so much off guard as to what a ******
implementation and haptic most digital volume controls offer….. However decided to order an Spl 2 Volume and will take one extra A/D conversion in account.
It is a small price to pay if i can at last have piece. If i am the only one finding it so bad i got tired of getting frustrated by it. I am learning.
Amen

 

[DrSpan]

Perhaps this has already been pointed out... Your Flex has asymmetric velocity-sensitive volume, it's programmed that way on purpose, it's a feature that many find useful.
The volume can be defeated by rotating the control counterclockwise rapidly in less than turn.
Increasing the volume is not velocity-sensitive, this is a safety feature.
May not be to your liking, but it is on purpose. Many devices feature velocity sensitive volume, some like it, some don't. Not many products take the risk on velocity-sensitive increase.

Hi there.
I know by now that the Flex has a 20 step encoder. Its no wonder resolution is low.
To the „safety“ measures i literally and honestly never had issues or broke sweat over volume regulation until digital came.
I also have never damaged a speaker in my life cause i messed up the volume or something. To be honest i feel like taking crazy pills having to
discuss (not with you , talking in general) that i simply want a Volume control that behaves like any analog amplifier or Preamplifier and people explain to me
that it is a weird thing.
I am not here trying to convince others. As i said to another member , i ordered an Spl 2 Volume and decided that compared to the current state of the volume on the Flex
i could not care less about loosing 3% quality cause of going through obsolete (for some) analog hardware.
There are many things Digital does better but this volume implementation is not there yet and maybe never will cause i seem to be the only one
wishing it was different.
So i gave up . No biggie Thats why i don`t check in that frequently here anymore.
Also i am only speaking for my self. Not saying others are wrong.

That said, have a nice evening and thanks for tuning in.

 

[DrSpan]

Who said that analog pots are rough and imprecise?
I can and I do adjust the Alps pot of my pre withing mV,like from 100mV to 101mV (yes,it's when I adjust unity gain with my x-over,or adjust levels,it's OCD to start from round numbers and you don't loose count if you do it all the time,don't laugh )

(and yes,it takes very fine movement )

Edit:and it's not even a full turn one,it goes from 7 to 5 'o clock range.

Because english is not my native language i sometimes have issue understanding sarcasm but i will suppose you mean it as a joke ? so be gentle with me
"Who said that analog pots are rough and imprecise?“ The Spl 2Control (i unfortunately sold) had one of the smoothest feeling volume knobs ever.
Do people really say this about analog potis?
I literally never had a potentiometer where i had all gain from „7-5“ so i cant really understand or imagine what you mean tbh.

Problem solved with Spl Volume 2 for me

Cheers

 

[Sokel]

Because english is not my native language i sometimes have issue understanding sarcasm but i will suppose you mean it as a joke ? so be gentle with me
"Who said that analog pots are rough and imprecise?“ The Spl 2Control (i unfortunately sold) had one of the smoothest feeling volume knobs ever.
Do people really say this about analog potis?
I literally never had a potentiometer where i had all gain from „7-5“ so i cant really understand or imagine what you mean tbh.

Problem solved with Spl Volume 2 for me

Cheers

No,no joke at all,it's a log one,imagine that it's unity is at about 2'o clock.
It's part of a pre that can output about 10V,is big,heavy,smooth and motorized.

I think it's a "blue velvet" one?

But people do think analog pot like I said above,probably thinking about the cheap,scratchy ones.