Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

[Blockader]

Why doesn't Genelec and Neumann also build something similar to the 8C , with subs on the back ?
How hard can it be ?

Neumann is too focused on minimizing IMD and Genelec is too focused on minimizing diffractions to design something like 8C. 8C's have relatively high distortion. It's not hard to design something like 8C for their teams, I think they just do not believe a speaker like 8C fits to their design philosophy.

 

[RobL]

Why doesn't Genelec and Neumann also build something similar to the 8C , with subs on the back ?
How hard can it be ?

83_1 + W371A
Cardioid for a full octave below the 8C.

 

[Pearljam5000]

83_1 + W371A
Cardioid for a full octave below the 8C.

Yes
But it's more practical and cost effective to have a compact speaker that already includes the subs and there's no need to add anything else to it
So I don't understand why don't more brands do it.

 

[thewas]

Yes
But it's more practical and cost effective to have a compact speaker that already includes the subs and there's no need to add anything else to it
So I don't understand why don't more brands do it.

Because as Genelec explains one of the biggest advantages of subs is the flexibility of placing them differently than the monitors to avoid/reduce SBIRs.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Because as Genelec explains one of the biggest advantages of subs is the flexibility of placing them differently than the monitors to avoid/reduce SBIRs.

OK
But why is D&D doing it if it's a theoretical disadvantage ?
Kii also with Kii 3

 

[thewas]

OK
But why is D&D doing it if it's a theoretical disadvantage ?
Kii also with Kii 3

Guess because there is a market also for people (usually rather non-professional but Hifi fans) who rather want an all-in-one solution. If you read the recommendations of D&D they correctly recommend placing it near the front wall due to that reason while a seperate monitor + sub(s) combo gives you more flexibility there as shown above.

 

[aro03]

I would not want to presume that our experiences are representative of the 8c population. That said, I would be interested to know if there is a common failure mode. I hope to run them for many years more without requiring amp replacements.

I’m about to receive a replacement board on Tuesday, so hopefully that fixes it. Swapping over is a simple job. Support have generally been very responsive and helpful, but have had limited bandwidth recently due to external factors. Follow up politely, and I’m sure they will help you.

Reverting with a quick update on my issue.

Although D&D sent me a complete new panel, I decided to replace just the Pascal S-PRO2 amp module (i.e. a direct swap onto my original panel). It was a very simple install, and took about 5 minutes. After re-assembling the speaker appears to be working perfectly again. I must admit that after a few weeks with no 8c's, I had forgotten how good they sound!

I will confirm with frequency response measurements tomorrow.

Reflecting on the whole process, it is reassuring to me that:

• the amp module can be so easily sourced and swapped out
• D&D are highly supportive and quick to make things right (even outside of the warranty period)

 

[Penelinfi]

Also driver failure due to overload is usually a result of wrong/inexperienced usage (usually when we are young and having a party )

So under usual "Hifi" usage the failure risk of an active loudspeaker is theoretically higher than of a passive as an active crossover can fail easier and quicker, also a typical component failure is more detrimental, for example if electrolytic capacitors dry out on a passive loudspeaker that would just mess FR but could lead the active board to not operate at all. I am collecting loudspeakers since several decades and while loudspeaker drivers of both have usually the same failures like crumbly surround foams or dried ferrofluid, I never had a passive crossover failing while several active and of course also amps. Sure one will say we should consider also the separate amps needed for the passive crossover which also fail (although usually not so often due to their often better cooling especially compared to closed baffle active loudspeakers which don't have the cooling effect of the BR port) but such a separate amp is usually cheaper and easier to repair or replace.

I've had a speaker with melted inductors. Or burnt resistors which melted a cap and changed the capacitance a little.
For the inductors, Magnat sent me a schematic for this older model speaker which was nice.

 

[levimax]

Reverting with a quick update on my issue.

Although D&D sent me a complete new panel, I decided to replace just the Pascal S-PRO2 amp module (i.e. a direct swap onto my original panel). It was a very simple install, and took about 5 minutes. After re-assembling the speaker appears to be working perfectly again. I must admit that after a few weeks with no 8c's, I had forgotten how good they sound!

I will confirm with frequency response measurements tomorrow.

Reflecting on the whole process, it is reassuring to me that:

• the amp module can be so easily sourced and swapped out
• D&D are highly supportive and quick to make things right (even outside of the warranty period)

That is very good news! Since it sounds like these modules may be the "weak link" are you going to buy a couple extra in case they go out of production in the future? I would expect speakers like these to last decades but who knows how long Pascal will be making the modules.

 

[MKR]

Makes me wonder why D&D went with Pascal vs the other great options, especially Hypex or Purifi. Maybe because they were cheapest?

 

[Emlin]

Makes me wonder why D&D went with Pascal vs the other great options, especially Hypex or Purifi. Maybe because they were cheapest?

Don't know that Purifi were selling anything then, but it doesn’t matter when they work anyway.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Is the 8C a pro monitor or a hifi speaker ?

 

[tmtomh]

Makes me wonder why D&D went with Pascal vs the other great options, especially Hypex or Purifi. Maybe because they were cheapest?

To my knowledge, yes, cheaper than Hypex or Purifi. I assume that's also why Genelec uses Infineon modules.

 

[Pearljam5000]

E

To my knowledge, yes, cheaper than Hypex or Purifi. I assume that's also why Genelec uses Infineon modules.

Which is cheaper Infineon or Pascal?

 

[Dialectic]

Makes me wonder why D&D went with Pascal vs the other great options, especially Hypex or Purifi. Maybe because they were cheapest?

Because the difference is inaudible and the only people in the world who care are a small subset of ASR users.

 

[MKR]

Because the difference is inaudible and the only people in the world who care are a small subset of ASR users.

Who said anything about sound quality? Wasn’t my point. Rather I expected they went with Pascal due to cost, maybe there is a reliability issue, and ya get what ya pay for. Not saying that is the case at all (lower reliability), so don’t jump on me for that, just could be a link. Quality ain’t free, you pay for that. As to sound quality, the 8Cs are superb, so clear that is not an issue with the Pascal. But quality/reliability? Maybe

 

[MKR]

Is the 8C a pro monitor or a hifi speaker ?

Both, same as Genelec and Kii

 

[Pearljam5000]

Both, same as Genelec and Kii

I think only Genelecs are purely pro monitors by definition.
I'm not sure how Kii and D&D define their monitors .

 

[Dialectic]

Who said anything about sound quality? Wasn’t my point. Rather I expected they went with Pascal due to cost, maybe there is a reliability issue, and ya get what ya pay for. Not saying that is the case at all (lower reliability), so don’t jump on me for that, just could be a link. Quality ain’t free, you pay for that. As to sound quality, the 8Cs are superb, so clear that is not an issue with the Pascal. But quality/reliability? Maybe

There was a nasty fight on ASR years ago about the projected longevity of NCore amplifiers, keyed off by the low-quality capacitors used thereon. I won't dig up this regrettable episode.

Unless presented with data to the contrary, I very much doubt that the various chip amps and Class D modules used by the pro monitor companies differ significantly in MTBF.

In SINAD on Amir's bench, however, sure, there are big differences.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Maybe tube amps are more reliable after all