Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

[Massimo]

Can you clarify specific, which ''trade off around styling and fitting'' the R/Reference have and the D&D 8c have fixed ?

The KEF R3 scenario requires that you accomodate, in addition to the speakers, subwoofers and a cabinet/rack for amplification and a streaming device. With the 8C, all you need to accomodate in your room is a pair of speakers, nothing else.

 

[dc655321]

No. Did you know most speakers use a port ?

Fair point, if you consider that "constructive".

I do not, as it seems many BR ports are poorly implemented, contributing more distortion energy than bass extension.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Fair point, if you consider that "constructive".

I do not, as it seems many BR ports are poorly implemented, contributing more distortion energy than bass extension.

''Note the lack of a strong resonance from the port. I mention this because many speakers have ports that cause resonance in the midrange. Most measurements do not provide sufficient resolution to show these issues. However, the Klippel NFS does. And in the case of the Kef R3, there are no such issues. This is attributed to the legitimate engineering of the port, dubbed by Kef as “Flexible Port Technology”, which is detailed in the graphic below.''
source: https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kef_r3/

Well design port > that 8c cardiod.

 

[dc655321]

Well design port > that 8c cardiod.

If you say so.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

If you say so.

Is not what I say, the data clearly show the bleeding.

 

[FrantzM]

One thing that is greatly mitigated by the cardioid bass and the directivity control down to 100 Hz is the very serious, not well known and deleterious phenomenon of SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference Response), which very much affects the response of any low frequency radiators from subwoofer to main speakers. Much of the energy of bass in music or movies for that matter resides in the 100 to 300 Hz with the 100~200 Hz region, let's call it midbass for the sake of the discussion, being extremely important in the degree of realism of the bass reproduction. While many speakers seem at ease in the reproduction of those frequencies, most have difficulties in reproducing these with proper dynamics . Many see the subwoofer as the sole responsible of good and realistic bass. All things being equal, the reproduction and dynamic range of which the speaker is capable in the 100 to 200 Hz region, affects very much the quality and realism of the perceived "bass",. A point touched in the review of the Genelec 8361... I believe the 8C has that kind of realistic bass reproduction, and that is not simply achieved by plopping a subwoofer to a speaker incapable of good midbass dynamics.
SBIR starts rearing its ugly head the second you move the speakers from the boundaries. it does not help that most speakers radiates omni directionally in the bass and midbass. Yes, these can be mitigated with speaker placement.. that means placement of both main speakers and , yes orientation too of subwoofers. The 8C is a system that take care of these issues in an elegant and convenient fashion, I mean, the darn thing seems to be capable of 105 dB at 35 Hz and this at a listening distance of 3 meters... I prefer, like the next person low level of distortions, but the 8C distorts where the distortion is masked by the signal, so it may not be that audible// All that in a small concentrent package, that includes almost everything. I would have wished for a way to control the volume that is not an app. To me a physical volume control is more ergonomic than anything a touch screen can present.
So for the (substantial) price of admission. You have a serious, complete linear system capable of flat, from 20 to 20 000 Hz output, at realistic levels in a large room with a great deal of linearity. Technology may take us, eventually there at a lower price, we may have to wait,; some very knowledgeable people may equal or surpass this level of performance with some speakers and subs... For the vast majority of audiophiles, even very serious and dedicated ones, , they may find that to achieve such results, the totals cost is pretty close to the 8C asking price and the resultant system more Rupe-Goldberesque ( Main speakers, Subwoofers, Cables, DAC, amplifiers, Crossover. Know-how, lot of it).
If one is able to to forgo the ROON integration and aesthetics , there is a less expensive, much uglier version:, the 8C Studio, that seems to cost around $8500 ... Same performances and size, much, much uglier. To me, it remains very compelling...

Waiting (perhaps) for one more review.. You know whose

Peace.

 

[dc655321]

the data clearly show the bleeding.

WTF are you talking about?
What does "Well design port > that 8c cardiod" mean?

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

WTF are you talking about?
What does "Well design port > that 8c cardiod" mean?

The fact that a well design port doesn't have bleeding energy and the 8c haven't fixed the energy bleeding?

The 8c's upper-bass/low-midrange distortion is a result of bleeding energy for use to establish the cardioid field.

No free lunch, as they say...

 

[Kvalsvoll]

But, only a coaxial can be time-domain coherent.
Also, a narrow directivity will focus the sound more to the listener and interact less with the room.

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Talking about the huge bleeding energy from 8c, a aluminum cabinet should help to mitigate the bleeding or not?

Has to do with speaker and room seen as a system - better directivity reduces the impact from room reflections, which show up as delayed sound in the time domain. This has nothing to do with the configuration of the drivers in the speaker, and today any speaker can be linear phase with active dsp - until you place it in a room.

 

[Scholl]

The fact that a well design port doesn't have bleeding energy and the 8c haven't fixed the energy bleeding?

You seem to be confused about those technical details.

The "energy bleeding", as you call it, is not a defect but a necessary feature to provide the cardioid directivity in the D&D 8C. The woofer back wave exits the enclosure through the side openings, with a specific delay imparted by the porous absorbers situated in those openings. The woofer to side openings distance and the delay are set in such a way that the resulting wave is constructive to the front of the speaker, and progressively more destructive toward the rear. Which gives the cardioid directivity.

The advantages of the cardioid directivity have been explained by FrantzM. It is less about mode control in a room, and more about avoiding destructive reflections from nearby boundaries. Especially the front wall. The D&D 8C, or the Kii Three, can be placed right against the front wall, which will increase their output when the reflected wave is low enough in frequency to add constructively with the direct signal (mostly under 100hz), all the while avoiding destructive interference at higher frequencies (mid-bass and low-mids) where the cardioid directivity is in effect.

As far as a bass reflex port is concerned, the port increases a driver sensitivity at its tuning frequency. But below that frequency, the woofer back wave progressively exits the enclosure as if it was an open baffle, cancelling with the 180° out of phase front wave, producing the typical 24dB/oct slope seen in most ported enclosures below the port tuning frequency. Which is why the input signal should not boosted with an EQ below the tuning frequency of a ported speaker. It can create damaging excursion to the woofer. So, in a way, a port can also "bleed energy".

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

The "energy bleeding", as you call it, is not a defect but a necessary featurre

So the big increase in distortion due to their cardioid design is an additional feature.

I want to clarify the fact that D&d 8c it's a very well done cardiod, that being said the bleeding energy are clearly showed in the distortion. Im very sure that d&d 8c is going to improve that, that being said this is a ridiculous expensive speaker.
At least those Genelec are expensive but are made from aluminum instead of wood.

 

[dc655321]

The fact that a well design port doesn't have bleeding energy and the 8c haven't fixed the energy bleeding?

"Bleeding energy" seems to have given you the wrong impression.
It is purposely done - that back-wave energy is necessary to create the cardioid field.
The driver must be pushed harder to compensate for that, hence distortion.

Two things:
1) It's not something to be "fixed" with this type of passive design, it's a feature
2) The bandwidth and amplitude of the distortion are still benign, relative to other considerations (bandwidth of speaker system, dynamic range, DSP, etc)

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

The driver must be pushed harder to compensate for that, hence distortion.

Not true. At 86dB the distortion is ugly too. In fact the form it's the same at 86dB. The big bump around 100hz its the same.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

The front cabinet from this speaker are made using aluminum, right?

 

[dc655321]

Not true. At 86dB the distortion is ugly too. In fact the form it's the same at 86dB. The big bump around 100hz its the same.

Enjoy your bliss.

 

[thewas]

Thing is SBIR starts rearing its ugly head the second you move the speakers from the boundaries. it does not help that most speakers radiates omni directionally in the bass and midbass. Yes, these can be mitigated with speaker placement.. that means placement of both main speakers and , yes orientation too of subwoofers. The 8C is a system that take care of these issues in an elegant and convenient fashion

Mind you the 8c needs also placement close to the front wall as otherwise its rear subwoofer will also have the SBIR problem as it has no cardioid behaviour in the deep bass like the Geithain K or Kii Three models do.

Still what you say about the too often seen SBIR in the 100-200 Hz region is very important as most people tend to place their loudspeakers in a distance to the front walls which causes them (which can have other advantages though like better imaging):

As it can be seen the best solution in such setups are subwoofers:

 

[sigbergaudio]

So the big increase in distortion due to their cardioid design is an additional feature.



I want to clarify the fact that D&d 8c it's a very well done cardiod, that being said the bleeding energy are clearly showed in the distortion. Im very sure that d&d 8c is going to improve that, that being said this is a ridiculous expensive speaker.
At least those Genelec are expensive but are made from aluminum instead of wood.

Have you heard these speakers? Based on those who have, the apparent increased distortion is not audible, and as such seems like a reasonable trade-off. Price of hifi in general is also a pretty non-linear concept dependent on a lot of things. What is "better" for one customer may not be for another. That doesn't mean the price is wrong. There are 2-way passive speakers out there that cost twice as much as the 8C.

 

[NYfan2]

The front cabinet from this speaker are made using aluminum, right?

No, the front is injection moulded composite, made from ABS and polycarbonate.

 

[Pearljam5000]

So is the 8C basically a 2-way with built in subs?

 

[Purité Audio]

Bass drivers cross over at 100Hz if I remember correctly, imho the 8Cs are the most complete single box design available and there is much more to come from a company three metres under water!
Keith