• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

NYfan2

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 10, 2021
Messages
209
Likes
446
Location
Netherlands
So is the 8C basically a 2-way with built in subs?
I would say it is a 3-way design.

Already a lot is said about these loudspeakers, also on this forum so if you use the search function you will have a lot to read.

Good introduction video is the before the review video from Erin

Another one I liked is the interview John Darko had with Martijn Mensink from Dutch & Dutch.
 

Purité Audio

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Barrowmaster
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
9,051
Likes
12,149
Location
London
Boom boom!
On my first 8C page I mistakenly wrote that their offices were 10metres under water, Martijn pointed out my error they are a metre though, I believe below sea level.
Keith
 

charleski

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 15, 2019
Messages
1,098
Likes
2,239
Location
Manchester UK
No wonder they need subs...
nDbIEMIwbYxbt8p3RxQnE3sqZdTwENh8fasxJy5QDcU.jpg

Don't forget to let your subwoofer out for a wee before going to bed!
[courtesy of reddit]
 

Pearljam5000

Master Contributor
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Messages
5,125
Likes
5,355
I would say it is a 3-way design.

Already a lot is said about these loudspeakers, also on this forum so if you use the search function you will have a lot to read.

Good introduction video is the before the review video from Erin

Another one I liked is the interview John Darko had with Martijn Mensink from Dutch & Dutch.
I read about them but specs are confusing
1 tweeter
1 mid
2 subwoofers
So I wasn't sure if it's 2-way + subs
Or a 3-way
Screenshot_20211123-150529.jpg
 

NYfan2

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 10, 2021
Messages
209
Likes
446
Location
Netherlands
First of all I'm not an expert ;) so it's just my opinion.

From a design point of view the cabinet for me is a 3-way design.
I'm not sure if the 2 units in the back have their own enclosure because maybe then you can talk about a 2-way with built in subs.

I also noticed that Dutch & Dutch are talking about the loudspeaker units in the back as a double subwoofer probably because these are used from 100hz and down.

Maybe someone with more knowledge about the design of the 8C can clear this.
 

dfuller

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
3,335
Likes
5,051
That's what I'm asking the experts here, obviously 2 subs instead of a normal woofer are not common.
It's a 3 way, same way barefoot MM27s are 3 way despite having a crossover point around 100hz to the subs.
 

garbz

Active Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2021
Messages
120
Likes
183
Mind you the 8c needs also placement close to the front wall
I can't help but feel you are telling a Ferrari owner that they should drive in a school zone. It seems this argument is missing the single most obvious point: The speaker is designed to accommodate specifically rooms where positioning is a problem. All this talk about ports vs cardioid, and placement, and subs misses the obvious point: Some people have living rooms, not dedicated listening rooms.
I'm not sure if the 2 units in the back have their own enclosure because maybe then you can talk about a 2-way with built in subs.
They do. Otherwise the cardioid setup won't work. The tweeters and subs are sealed, and the midrange has the vent.

But really does anyone have a clear definition of what it means to be x-way, or what it means to be a subwoofer?
 

nerdoldnerdith

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
495
Likes
690
Location
Chicago
I can't help but feel you are telling a Ferrari owner that they should drive in a school zone. It seems this argument is missing the single most obvious point: The speaker is designed to accommodate specifically rooms where positioning is a problem. All this talk about ports vs cardioid, and placement, and subs misses the obvious point: Some people have living rooms, not dedicated listening rooms.

They do. Otherwise the cardioid setup won't work. The tweeters and subs are sealed, and the midrange has the vent.

But really does anyone have a clear definition of what it means to be x-way, or what it means to be a subwoofer?
The 8C work best when they are placed against a front wall. It's what the manufacturer recommends. You can place them elsewhere in the room, but you won't get the benefit of the boundary coupled bass that eliminates SBIR from the front wall in low frequencies.
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,744
Likes
16,176
I can't help but feel you are telling a Ferrari owner that they should drive in a school zone.
No, my comment was a reply to the post that other loudspeakers suffer from SBIR because they are usually placed too far from the front wall because like you say
Some people have living rooms, not dedicated listening rooms
and that the 8c cannot solve this limitation as it also needs to close to the front wall placement as it has a normal sub on its rear side and is not a cardioid below 100 Hz.
 

garbz

Active Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2021
Messages
120
Likes
183
and that the 8c cannot solve this limitation as it also needs to close to the front wall placement as it has a normal sub on its rear side and is not a cardioid below 100 Hz.
Err, that's precisely the limitation it solves. Lack of space. The cardioid design specifically deals with SBIR when placed against the front wall (common practice in a living room). The subs are not supposed to have a cardioid pattern, they benefit from the boundary effect when close coupled to the front wall. What is bad for the midrange at that distance benefits the sub. It's basically an ideal speaker design for those people who have to have speakers between 10-60cm from the wall and would otherwise trip over them in the room.

The 8C work best when they are placed against a front wall.
Exactly my point. Living rooms, not dedicated listening spaces. Most of us don't have the space or the tolerant significant others to put speakers in the middle of the room and are limited to placing them against a front wall.
 

thewas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
6,744
Likes
16,176
Err, that's precisely the limitation it solves. Lack of space.
We say the same thing from different aspects, my comment was that its not a solver for someone who cannot place his loudspeakers close to the front wall.
 

richard12511

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
4,335
Likes
6,700
I was browsing preference ratings yesterday (here: https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/) and noticed something odd. If you use a subwoofer, apparently you are better off spending a fraction of the price getting a pair of KEF R3s (rating of 8.2 w/sub) or Polk R200s (rating of 8.3 w/sub) rather than the 8Cs, which score 8.0 for the same.

I own the D&D 8Cs so not trying to dismiss their full range achievement here, it just made me wonder what could have been possible at a lower price with excellent satellite speakers and a well integrated sub.

Ehhh, I wouldn't worry too much about those ratings. I think the 8030c actually scores highest(ASR measured) with sub, and I know I prefer the 8351b(which measures a little lower)w/sub over the 8030c/sub. 8C w/sub is also a level above to my ears.
 

richard12511

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
4,335
Likes
6,700
but are essentially trying to squeeze an awful lot out of one small package. This applies to Genelec/D&D and a number of others.
I'd love to see a D&D Tower speaker :). When taking into account it's full range capabilities, the 8C may be the best overall speaker I've ever heard. Given what they accomplished with a bookshelf speaker, I'd love to see what @Martijn Mensink and crew could do with a tower speaker.
 

richard12511

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
4,335
Likes
6,700
The problem is, D&D its way expensive and doesn't have the '' unique '' UNIQ. Only the typical top tweeter and bottom woofer (You can buy the typical bookshelf and add subs, and its better and cheaper), and that setup would sound like the d&d 8c, but you cannot buy the typical 2 way bookshelf and expect the same sound because the R series uses a special coaxial.
A typical 2 way + sub is not going to have the low frequency directivity control that the 8C has. Some research has shown that LF directivity control correlates with listener preference.
Don't to mention the fact that that UNIQ from KEF R3 which all of their adventage ( coaxial ) still have lower distortion than the D&D8, even the woofers are better in Kef R series, because these woofer have much less distortion overall.

If there can be any real criticism of the 8C, it would be the distortion. It's the tradeoff for having gaining that LF directivity control. IMO, it's a good trade.
I think D&D 8c should cost far less.
Naah, I'm not aware of any other speaker of that size that digs as deep, controls directivity as low, for less. The Kii 3 is probably the closest counterpart, but it's more expensive. Mesanovic MTM 10 digs almost as deep, but lacks the LF directivity control, though I'd still love to hear those speakers side by side. Keep in mind the studio version(no streaming and lesser finish) is $9,000.
 

richard12511

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
4,335
Likes
6,700
I'd love an explanation of how the cardioid is either already taken into account in the preference score, or is ignored. To me this is an area that has not been researched properly, speakers like the 8c are controlling their sound at the frequencies where most of the energy in music is, this must matter, but how much? I expect they break the findings that speaker preference from room to room does not change, as smaller less good rooms should benefit more from lower pattern control and should change the preferred speaker rankings.
Check out the masters thesis I posted above. It seems to suggest that, all else constant, lower directivity control creates more preferable sound.

Really cool paper, and actually quite digestible. I think @fluid originally brought it to my attention.
 

baumaand

New Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2021
Messages
4
Likes
2
Hi
I am interested in the Dutch&Dutch 8C. In Switzerland, unfortunately, there are no dealers or showrooms where I can look and listen to the speaker.
Are there any 8C owners who live in Zurich, St. Gallen, Bern or Basel who would show me the speaker? That would be great!
 

Digby

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
1,632
Likes
1,555
I'd love to see a D&D Tower speaker :). When taking into account it's full range capabilities, the 8C may be the best overall speaker I've ever heard. Given what they accomplished with a bookshelf speaker, I'd love to see what @Martijn Mensink and crew could do with a tower speaker.
If cardioid designs are best close to the front wall (well, rear wall - why is it called the front wall when it is behind?), then I suppose floorstanders that are going to be further out in the room somewhat defeat the point of having cardioid reproduction.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom