Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review

[Acerun]

Any thoughts @SEKLEM , I know you're a fan of the Niles SI-275

 

[Acerun]

@amirm mentioned this which I found in a search, referring to Pluto 2... "SINAD is not very instructive for these amps since it is dominated by noise, not distortion. I say best measurement to look at is the frequency response. That determines colorations it may add to everything."

Does the Niles flat response and bandwidth to almost 200 offer a counterpunch to the higher Sinad of the x3700?

 

[Bear123]

The Denon is flat as a pancake out to 20 KHz, the upper range of hearing for folks with near perfect hearing…..do you have perfect hearing to beyond 20 KHz? I suspect that even if you did, there would be no audible difference even if the Denon was down a dB or two at 20 KHz, especially since there is almost zero content at that frequency.

Looks like you stand to make a few bucks selling them. If you want to listen really loud i.e. above -10MV, you might be able to make an argument for getting a more powerful 3/5 channel amp.

 

[Acerun]

The Denon is flat as a pancake out to 20 KHz, the upper range of hearing for folks with near perfect hearing…..do you have perfect hearing to beyond 20 KHz? I suspect that even if you did, there would be no audible difference even if the Denon was down a dB or two at 20 KHz, especially since there is almost zero content at that frequency.

Looks like you stand to make a few bucks selling them. If you want to listen really loud i.e. above -10MV, you might be able to make an argument for getting a more powerful 3/5 channel amp.

Very helpful. I clearly don't know what I don't know but this chart doesn't mean anything? I appreciate all the feedback because I literally don't know how to interpret the measurements...

 

[amper42]

Very helpful. I clearly don't know what I don't know but this chart doesn't mean anything? I appreciate all the feedback because I literally don't know how to interpret the measurements...

The chart comparing the FR above 20 KHz for Denon 3700 versus the NILES is a waste of time. You won't hear anything beyond 20khz unless you have four legs or are less than 20 years old and have trained your ears to do so. Most of the older gentlemen on this forum struggle to hear above 13KHz.

 

[peng]

@amirm mentioned this which I found in a search, referring to Pluto 2... "SINAD is not very instructive for these amps since it is dominated by noise, not distortion. I say best measurement to look at is the frequency response. That determines colorations it may add to everything."

Does the Niles flat response and bandwidth to almost 200 offer a counterpunch to the higher Sinad of the x3700?

The Niles was measured with analog input so you should compare it to the X3700H using analog input as well.
In the graphs below, you can see that the Niles was down 3 dB at about 180 kHz and the X3700H was down 3 dB at about 150 kHz.

Such minor difference at above 100 kHz shouldn't matter to "coloration" when humans are only good for about 20 to 20,000 Hz even for young people with no hearing loss.

SINAD may be dominated by noise, but it is still an excellent indicator when combined with SNR/or DNR, IMD and FFT.
From the FFT diagram, you can ignore the noise and focus on the harmonics of the Si275, and compared it with the X3700H. I am just picking the same examples you seem to be using.

You can clearly see that the Denon is not just better in THD+N, but also lower in THD.

 

[Acerun]

Thanks all, I guess I thought the Niles was better than it is.

 

[jgiannakas]

Thanks all, I guess I thought the Niles was better than it is.

It does have some (small) advantages:
1. It will run much cooler than the denon
2. It has more power at 4 ohms all channels driven (124W vs 102w for the denon) but it has less headroom (180w vs 248w).
3. You can use them to take off load from the denon

If I were you I would have used it to drive the 2 surrounds only so I take off some load from the AVR to drive the front 3 channels more easily, where the AVR is also more capable power wise. I would sell the other 2 units if not planning to upgrade to more speakers any time soon. Note that this makes sense if you are listening to (very) high volumes where the extra power from the denon would be helpful.

What speakers will you be connecting them to?

 

[Acerun]

It does have some (small) advantages:
1. It will run much cooler than the denon
2. It has more power at 4 ohms all channels driven (124W vs 102w for the denon) but it has less headroom (180w vs 248w).
3. You can use them to take off load from the denon

If I were you I would have used it to drive the 2 surrounds only so I take off some load from the AVR to drive the front 3 channels more easily, where the AVR is also more capable power wise. I would sell the other 2 units if not planning to upgrade to more speakers any time soon. Note that this makes sense if you are listening to (very) high volumes where the extra power from the denon would be helpful.

What speakers will you be connecting them to?

Thanks. I am using HTD Level 3 Bookshelves and center. And Polk S10s for surrounds. I'm afraid the pre-out functionality of the x3700 is all or nothing. The x8500 allows selective offloading. I also see I wasn't comparing the same charts. Thanks for the correction.

 

[jgiannakas]

Thanks. I am using HTD Level 3 Bookshelves and center. And Polk S10s for surrounds. I'm afraid the pre-out functionality of the x3700 is all or nothing. The x8500 allows selective offloading. I also see I wasn't comparing the same charts. Thanks for the correction.

Nope you can use some of the pre outs (you can just connect the amp straight to the pre outs as they are always active) as long as your amp is sensitive enough to avoid clipping the denon amps first. Which it is as you need a bit less than 1V for rated output, with the denon clipping at 1.4

 

[peng]

Nope you can use some of the pre outs (you can just connect the amp straight to the pre outs as they are always active) as long as your amp is sensitive enough to avoid clipping the denon amps first. Which it is as you need a bit less than 1V for rated output, with the denon clipping at 1.4

That is not quite right.

a) The X3700H does allow you to disconnect the front left and front right channel power amps if you use the amp assign function if you select 11 channel processing.
b) The Denon's power amp may be clipping with pre out at or higher than 1.4 V, but the preamp won't be clipping at such low level, not at 2 V or even much higher.

The "clipping" referred to the power amp, not the preamp, but the resulting much increased distortions from the power amp due to clipping would be fed back to the preamp output, such that it would have increased distortion too, to about 0.018% THD+N/or 75 dB SINAD.

 

[jgiannakas]

That is not quite right.

a) The X3700H does allow you to disconnect the front left and front right channel power amps if you use the amp assign function if you select 11 channel processing.
b) The Denon's power amp may be clipping with pre out at or higher than 1.4 V, but the preamp won't be clipping at such low level, not at 2 V or even much higher.

The "clipping" referred to the power amp, not the preamp, but the resulting much increased distortions from the power amp due to clipping would be fed back to the preamp output, such that it would have increased distortion too, to about 0.018% THD+N/or 75 dB SINAD.

Perfectly correct but if he’d like to use the external amps for the surround channels, leaving the more competent denon amps for the front stage I don’t think they can be disconnected?

 

[peng]

Perfectly correct but if he’d like to use the external amps for the surround channels, leaving the more competent denon amps for the front stage I don’t think they can be disconnected?

Obviously if you are going to use the internal front left and right channels amps then you can't disconnect them.

 

[Acerun]

My Niles SI-275 has just under one volt sensitivity so that should be okay... But it still sounds like I wouldn't be able to use it for the surrounds with the x3700.

 

[jgiannakas]

My Niles SI-275 has just under one volt sensitivity so that should be okay... But it still sounds like I wouldn't be able to use it for the surrounds with the x3700.

Why not? The pre outs on the denon are active all the time, so you just plug it in, no?

 

[Acerun]

Why not? The pre outs on the denon are active all the time, so you just plug it in, no?

Oh, then I misunderstood. If I used the Niles for the surround speakers then would it still take some of the strain off the Denon?

 

[jgiannakas]

Oh, then I misunderstood. If I used the Niles for the surround speakers then would it still take some of the strain off the Denon?

Yeap as it won’t be powering them the amps may be on but there would be no load on them

 

[Acerun]

Yeap as it won’t be powering them the amps may be on but there would be no load on them

Then what is the advantage of amp disconnect on the x8500 if you can use external amps for any channel anyway on the x3700?

 

[jgiannakas]

Then what is the advantage of amp disconnect on the x8500 if you can use external amps for any channel anyway on the x3700?

If your external amps are not sensitive enough then the x8500 is beneficial.

 

[peng]

Then what is the advantage of amp disconnect on the x8500 if you can use external amps for any channel anyway on the x3700?

Because with the 3700, if you use any of the internal amp channels, you cannot use preamp mode. When not in preamp mode, you can only disconnect the front left and right channels.

The 8500 allows you disconnect any channels when not in preamp mode.