- Thread Starter
- #81
Thank you for understanding that I am doing a research and respecting my quest.I do sympathize with your search as I wish there was a better integrated solution for my desktop.
Thank you for understanding that I am doing a research and respecting my quest.I do sympathize with your search as I wish there was a better integrated solution for my desktop.
If the Yamaha bites the dust, what should I do, pay $500 for a 2 channel only Yamaha WXA-50 that has a subwoofer pre-out but no bass management? Honestly, I'd probably buy another $200 5-7 channel AVR. Why the heck would I pay more than double for an inferior product(2 channel anything) even if I only want to power two speakers, or two speakers and a sub?
One of the only workarounds is to drastically limit your subwoofer selection to those that have speaker level inputs.
If the sub has an adjustable crossover frequency(most do that I'm familiar with), wouldn't that send signals above the crossover to the speakers, and below to the sub? In other words, the sub would serve as the crossover for both speakers and sub if there are speaker level inputs? I thought this is how it works but admit I'm not positive, now that you mention it.That wouldn't help the (satellite) speakers though as they will have the full frequency range.
This sounds a bit more complicated than what I'd be looking for. To clarify what I mean by being inferior, I mean that lack of subwoofer output, bass management, and eq will be a far larger degradation to sound quality than thousandths of a percent of SINAD in an AVR, if any , since A LOT of 2 channel gear measures the same or worse.Yamaha does not have crossover. Its sub output seems to be just a mono output. There is no mention of any filtering on the user manual nor on the brochures.
Why would you call a 2ch amplifier inferior? Or am I misreading you? @amirm has measured many AVRs and demonstrated the negative effects of video circuity and DSP artefacts. Reading his reviews shouldn't the AVR has more potential of being an inferior product, especially at the low end of the price spectrum? It doesn't cost to add a simple 2-way cross-over to an integrated amplifier. A couple of dual op-amp, a few components and a multi-position switch to offer different crossover frequencies is all it takes. If the signal is processed in the digital domain then it is even easier/cheaper as the only difference will be in the code (assuming the signal output already exists).
PS. I am a retired audio-acoustics engineer, an Abbey Road alumni, AES member, good friend of Siegfried Linkwitz RIP and a one time speaker designer. I am not boasting, just to let it be known that I am making suggestions as a person with credentials and the education.
If the sub has an adjustable crossover frequency(most do that I'm familiar with), wouldn't that send signals above the crossover to the speakers, and below to the sub? In other words, the sub would serve as the crossover for both speakers and sub if there are speaker level inputs?
Looks like what I'm thinking of would only apply for subs that have speaker level input *and* output, which seems uncommon. I had a Polk sub with this feature and I did use it in this way. I believe in this case, the crossover of the sub will filter lows to the sub and highs to the speakers. Again, this greatly limits subwoofer selection as it appears uncommon. The few other subs I've glanced at with speaker level inputs have only inputs and not outputs, so speakers will still receive a full range signal with crossover only affecting the sub(obviously)May I ask in your example where will be the high-pass part of the crossover?
the crossover of the sub will filter lows to the sub and highs to the speakers.
We've made a list on this topic, perhaps somewhat helpful even though OPs requirements was pretty specific.
https://www.sigbergaudio.no/en/blogs/news/stereo-amplifiers-with-proper-support-for-subwoofers
I suppose the dearth of products meeting the specs is proof enough the requirements are not common. I cannot understand why this is so. The benefits of room calibration/bass management are well accepted even by non-audiophiles. The benefits are easily demonstrated on the sales floor, as are the benefits of adding a powered sub. I'm with sarumbear in not understanding why there is not more demand.
I believe the Martin-Logan Forte amp and its near twin Paradigm PW Amp may also meet the OP's specs, although Amir's PW Amp test calls into question whether they have "good amplification". In Amir's "Not Recommended" conclusion he does state: "No doubt room EQ will make a bigger difference than any of these measurements do in the sound of the amplifier. So there is good value there."
I think this is objectively true, which once again brings into question why bass management/room eQ is not common in 2 channel equipment.
ADD: As an Elac owner, (older version) I have absolutely no complaints about its ergonomics. While it lacks direct input buttons, the included wireless remote does have them. The designer's assumed remote switching would be more useful to most owners. When I did change inputs on the front panel (I only use analog and optical) it seemed fast and simple.
HDMI ... is the only multichannel digital audio connection standard.
Anytime that anyone asks a question of the variety, "Why don't the majority consumer electronics manufacturers make thing ______?, the answer is always, "Because their marketing experts don't think there is a strong market for thing ______.
..... As such, I regard the question as rhetorical. Everybody wants to debate a rhetorical question, the answer to which is self-evident.....
Dolby 5.1 is a compressed 2-ch signal that is transmitted via optical or SPDIF. I was talking about discrete multi-channel formats like SACD, DVD-Audio or Blu-Ray.Seriously? Makes me wonder how multiplexed digital audio (Dolby 5.1) was transmitted from DVD players to AV receivers prior to the arrival of HDMI.
Denon engineers had been exceedingly naughty. However, maybe you can now understand why I specified "adjustable" crossover frequency. Not only your amp will fail to qualify but it also exposed the cunningly misleading marketing Denon in this case and according to you, the vast majority of the industry is involved that I was not aware of.
It seems I was the boy who was shouting "the emperor has no cloths on" and told not to be rude
Where is it written that if an integrated amplifier has a subwoofer output with LP filtering and with selectable cutover point that it necessary applies a complementary HP filter to the signal delivered to the internal power amp?
I am very surprised that not many integrated amps these days have pre-out/main-in connections anymore. Otherwise, you can simply tap the pre-outs to a MiniDSP 2x4 HD, HPF the mains to go back to the main-ins, and connect sub(s) to the remaining 2 channels. It should just be that simple.
No crossover.What about the NAD 3045?
So far my take is the industry has decided that if you want to have a system with small speakers, you should buy a smart speaker or a sound bar with an optional but matching subwoofer. The way Herman’s Citation line evolving is a good example for this.
On the other hand if you want a larger system then major players offer AVRs as they expect a large system will be used in an AV room. The rest of the market is served by niche products like miniDSP as the market is too small for major players.
in short, Hi-Fi separates as we knew for half a century has disappeared for the mass market. It is in rude health in the esoteric end though.