Integrated stereo amplifier with bass-management?

[abdo123]

Whaaaaat? Can you cite a couple of them?
That would be so lame...

Edit: I mean citing the ones which have a sub out without high pass for the mains.

this is something I personally own https://www.denon.com/en-us/product/amplifiers/pma-600ne

 

[sarumbear]

Yes. the vast majority of Hi-Fi amplifiers have no way of applying a high-pass filter. not even a fixed one at 80Hz.

Do you mean this in general or for amplifiers that has subwoofer outputs?

 

[abdo123]

Do you mean this in general or for amplifiers that has subwoofer outputs?

both.

 

[oursmagenta]

this is something I personally own https://www.denon.com/en-us/product/amplifiers/pma-600ne

Heewww, I didn't know it was possible... Thanks for the enlightment!

 

[beaRA]

Whaaaaat? Can you cite a couple of them?
That would be so lame...

Edit: I mean citing the ones which have a sub out without high pass for the mains.

I don't know if this falls under your definition of Hi-Fi, but I have bought a couple of desktop amps where this is true. The SMSL SA300 sub out is just a summed full-range pre-amp output and there is no high pass filter. The Nobsound NS-20G advertised subwoofer output is really just a full-range headphone output. Again, there is no high-pass filter.

 

[sarumbear]

this is something I personally own https://www.denon.com/en-us/product/amplifiers/pma-600ne

Denon engineers had been exceedingly naughty. However, maybe you can now understand why I specified "adjustable" crossover frequency. Not only your amp will fail to qualify but it also exposed the cunningly misleading marketing Denon in this case and according to you, the vast majority of the industry is involved that I was not aware of.

It seems I was the boy who was shouting "the emperor has no cloths on" and told not to be rude

 

[abdo123]

I don't know if this falls under your definition of Hi-Fi, but I have bought a couple of desktop amps where this is true. The SMSL SA300 sub out is just a summed full-range pre-amp output and there is no high pass filter. The Nobsound NS-20G advertised subwoofer output is really just a full-range headphone output. Again, there is no high-pass filter.

oh this is a double whammy since you have neither a highpass or a lowpass on your outputs.

 

[abdo123]

Denon engineers had been exceedingly naughty. However, maybe you can now understand why I specified "adjustable" crossover frequency. Not only your amp will fail to qualify but it also exposed the cunningly misleading marketing Denon in this case and according to you, the vast majority of the industry is involved.

Which is why I would go for MiniDSP SHD and active monitors and powered subs in 2021 if I'm going for a 2.2 setup from scratch.

 

[TulseLuper]

This must be why miniDSP is mentioned every time bass management/sub integration comes up.

 

[sarumbear]

I don't know if this falls under your definition of Hi-Fi, but I have bought a couple of desktop amps where this is true. The SMSL SA300 sub out is just a summed full-range pre-amp output and there is no high pass filter. The Nobsound NS-20G advertised subwoofer output is really just a full-range headphone output. Again, there is no high-pass filter.

In those examples we can maybe blame the cheap Chinese amps but what about Denon, one of the most respected Hi-Fi manufacturers?!

 

[beaRA]

In those examples we can maybe blame the cheap Chinese amps but what about Denon, one of the most respected Hi-Fi manufacturers?!

Seems as though Denon and the industry at large has decided an AVR is the integrated solution for this particular market need.

 

[oursmagenta]

Denon engineers had been exceedingly naughty. However, maybe you can now understand why I specified "adjustable" crossover frequency. Not only your amp will fail to qualify but it also exposed the cunningly misleading marketing Denon in this case and according to you, the vast majority of the industry is involved that I was not aware of.

It seems I was the boy who was shouting "the emperor has no cloths on" and told not to be rude

Nahhh, you are a bit rough around the edges (at least for me) but I see (from all the posts) that it seems to be pretty genuine (this sentence is really meant to be positive and to un-tense the atmosphere), so in the end that's fine.

And yes you definetly brought up something interesting for which @abdo123 responded with valuable info.

 

[Bear123]

What I see as readily apparent is that there actually aren't many solutions for a relatively simple, inexpensive 2 channel device that offers decent power and performance, bass management, and room and sub eq. Of those that you can find, they are often exorbitantly expensive. It is somewhat ludicrous that a 7 channel AVR is the optimal solution other than the unnecessary size and lots of included features that aren't needed. My deduction is that it just comes down to too small of a niche market for many products like these to be offered. An overwhelmingly vast majority of audiophiles will turn their nose up at such a product precisely *because* it offers bass management and eq. Another big part of the market does not want to limit themselves to *only* 2 channels and no video capability, so AVR's fit the bill. Even Denon's integrated 2 channel products do not have bass management or eq, while cost is in the same ballpark as their 7 channel AVR's that include all this capability. Since Denon already has Audyssey XT32, Sub Eq HT, DEQ, and bass management capability in their AVR's, I do kind of wonder why they don't offer a 2 channel integrated with these features. Surely they could bring a product like this to market for half the price of a 7 channel AVR. Again though, perhaps there are just so few who don't also want the convenience of being able to use with a display or a center channel and surrounds if desired, or as needs change?

 

[NTK]

What I see as readily apparent is that there actually aren't many solutions for a relatively simple, inexpensive 2 channel device that offers decent power and performance, bass management, and room and sub eq. Of those that you can find, they are often exorbitantly expensive. It is somewhat ludicrous that a 7 channel AVR is the optimal solution other than the unnecessary size and lots of included features that aren't needed. My deduction is that it just comes down to too small of a niche market for many products like these to be offered. An overwhelmingly vast majority of audiophiles will turn their nose up at such a product precisely *because* it offers bass management and eq. Another big part of the market does not want to limit themselves to *only* 2 channels and no video capability, so AVR's fit the bill. Even Denon's integrated 2 channel products do not have bass management or eq, while cost is in the same ballpark as their 7 channel AVR's that include all this capability. Since Denon already has Audyssey XT32, Sub Eq HT, DEQ, and bass management capability in their AVR's, I do kind of wonder why they don't offer a 2 channel integrated with these features. Surely they could bring a product like this to market for half the price of a 7 channel AVR. Again though, perhaps there are just so few who don't also want the convenience of being able to use with a display or a center channel and surrounds if desired, or as needs change?

I am very surprised that not many integrated amps these days have pre-out/main-in connections anymore. Otherwise, you can simply tap the pre-outs to a MiniDSP 2x4 HD, HPF the mains to go back to the main-ins, and connect sub(s) to the remaining 2 channels. It should just be that simple.

 

[abdo123]

What I see as readily apparent is that there actually aren't many solutions for a relatively simple, inexpensive 2 channel device that offers decent power and performance, bass management, and room and sub eq. Of those that you can find, they are often exorbitantly expensive. It is somewhat ludicrous that a 7 channel AVR is the optimal solution other than the unnecessary size and lots of included features that aren't needed. My deduction is that it just comes down to too small of a niche market for many products like these to be offered. An overwhelmingly vast majority of audiophiles will turn their nose up at such a product precisely *because* it offers bass management and eq. Another big part of the market does not want to limit themselves to *only* 2 channels and no video capability, so AVR's fit the bill. Even Denon's integrated 2 channel products do not have bass management or eq, while cost is in the same ballpark as their 7 channel AVR's that include all this capability. Since Denon already has Audyssey XT32, Sub Eq HT, DEQ, and bass management capability in their AVR's, I do kind of wonder why they don't offer a 2 channel integrated with these features. Surely they could bring a product like this to market for half the price of a 7 channel AVR. Again though, perhaps there are just so few who don't also want the convenience of being able to use with a display or a center channel and surrounds if desired, or as needs change?

There is basically no way around having bass management and being a 'smart' device at the same time. you need digital processing for subwoofer integration that is if you want to do it properly with no headaches.

so if your device has to be 'smart' why not add on to it with audio decoding and automated room correction?

an AVR is really the amplifier in everyone's home of this millennia

 

[Bear123]

Although I'm not currently in the market for the same product the OP is looking for, I easily could be. I'm currently using a re-purposed 5 channel Yamaha AVR for a 2.1 setup in my workout room. If the Yamaha bites the dust, what should I do, pay $500 for a 2 channel only Yamaha WXA-50 that has a subwoofer pre-out but no bass management? Honestly, I'd probably buy another $200 5-7 channel AVR. Why the heck would I pay more than double for an inferior product(2 channel anything) even if I only want to power two speakers, or two speakers and a sub?

 

[Bear123]

Whaaaaat? Can you cite a couple of them?
That would be so lame...

Edit: I mean citing the ones which have a sub out without high pass for the mains.

A better question would be.....list 2 channel equipment that have sub outs and DO have bass management. The list is very short, especially if you try to keep cost reasonable.

One of the only workarounds is to drastically limit your subwoofer selection to those that have speaker level inputs.

 

[sarumbear]

So far my take is the industry has decided that if you want to have a system with small speakers, you should buy a smart speaker or a sound bar with an optional but matching subwoofer. The way Herman’s Citation line evolving is a good example for this.

On the other hand if you want a larger system then major players offer AVRs as they expect a large system will be used in an AV room. The rest of the market is served by niche products like miniDSP as the market is too small for major players.

in short, Hi-Fi separates as we knew for half a century has disappeared for the mass market. It is in rude health in the esoteric end though.

 

[sarumbear]

A better question would be.....list 2 channel equipment that have sub outs and DO have bass management.

My specs doesn’t require bass management, it just requires a crossover. Naturally bass management includes a crossover.

I simply was not expecting manufacturers, especially one with a pedigree like Denon’s to add a subwoofer out without a crossover. What they have is a mono out labelled as subwoofer. That is in my book pulling wool over my eyes or in layman’s term: lying!

 

[beaRA]

So far my take is the industry has decided that if you want to have a system with small speakers, you should buy a smart speaker or a sound bar with an optional but matching subwoofer. The way Herman’s Citation line evolving is a good example for this.

On the other hand if you want a larger system then major players offer AVRs as they expect a large system will be used in an AV room. The rest of the market is served by niche products like miniDSP as the market is too small for major players.

in short, Hi-Fi separates as we knew for half a century has disappeared for the mass market. It is in rude health in the esoteric end though.

An AVR is a perfectly acceptable solution for me in my living room to allow me to combine small speakers with subwoofers for better overall performance than sound bars or 2.0 towers. I do sympathize with your search as I wish there was a better integrated solution for my desktop.