hypex power ratings

[tmtomh]

My repetition is not in a fraction as endless as that of @March Audio . To me, FUD is the endless avoiding of standards and unsupported reasoning like yours. Hypex NC500 specs are credible 100W continuous power from a so called 500W amplifier. Music signal is not generally defined and as such cannot be used in any definition, as long as it is not defined as a standard for testing. So far, it is only flogging a dead horse without any credible definition.

Anyone can read your exchanges with March and decide for themselves who has the better command of how the design and measurements play out - and in particular can decide for themselves whether or not your endless FUD about Class D into resistive loads vs speakers and with tones vs “real music” holds any water.

 

[tw99]

Even if my "500w" amp is only really 100w under some fairly unrealistic lab conditions, it was also relatively cheap and measures extremely well in most other respects. So it seems quite a reasonable choice to me.

I agree that all the data is here in the thread and others, so there's not much point in pma, march and restorer-john continuing with a discussion that's only going to end up in someone getting banned again...

 

[DonH56]

Does Hypex define how long a "peak" is in their peak power ratings? Do they use the 20 ms IHF spec or something else?

 

[changer]

Also, how often can it peak?

 

[NTK]

Also, how often can it peak?

This is from the Purifi 1ET400A datasheet, but I expect the Hypex modules to be similar. Per Purifi, continuous power output is limited by the thermal (cooling) design. If the cooling system is designed to an average output of 1/5 of the peak power, then it would be good for 20% duty cycle (e.g. 89% @ 10% power + 11% @ 100% power, etc.).

Note that Purifi does not sell power supplies (yet). So I believe it is assumed that the power supply is beefy enough and not a limiting factor.

 

[changer]

Interesting, thank you. Assumed the power supply can deliver, I should then buy some big heat sinks for optimized continuous power? Not so easy to attach them to a plate amp, though.

 

[March Audio]

Does Hypex define how long a "peak" is in their peak power ratings? Do they use the 20 ms IHF spec or something else?

Hi Don

It's entirely down to the cooling. As I posted earlier here is a P252 amp (Hypex nc252 module) happily delivering its rated power of 250 watts into 4 ohms for 5 minutes.

 

[March Audio]

Even if my "500w" amp is only really 100w under some fairly unrealistic lab conditions, it was also relatively cheap and measures extremely well in most other respects. So it seems quite a reasonable choice to me.

I agree that all the data is here in the thread and others, so there's not much point in pma, march and restorer-john continuing with a discussion that's only going to end up in someone getting banned again...

Dont worry, it isn't just 100watts, it performs as Hypex describe and as shown above will pass the FTC 5 minute rated power test.

I don't why this FUD keeps being spread by some. Amir has tested enough Hypex amps to show they perform as advertised, so no need for people to take my word for it. As you say the data is all available for people to decide for themselves, no need for me to argue further.

 

[DonH56]

Hi Don

It's entirely down to the cooling. As I posted earlier here is a P252 amp (nc252) happily delivering its rated power of 250 watts into 4 ohms for 5 minutes. ]

Got it, thanks Alan. I have not followed this thread much, rehash of the same old stuff.

 

[restorer-john]

Dont worry, it isn't just 100watts, it performs as Hypex describe and as shown above will pass the FTC 5 minute rated power test.

Your 250W 'test' is only at 1kHz Alan.

It will not pass muster with FTC compliant ratings. They require the full rated power bandwidth to be specified. Hypex themselves say it's only 5Khz on the NC-252.

Basically, Hypex are saying their amplifier cannot achieve full rated power above 5KHz for any period greater than 30 seconds without cooking the caps in the output filter. Are you saying Hypex are spreading FUD?

 

[tmtomh]

Your 250W 'test' is only at 1kHz Alan.

It will not pass muster with FTC compliant ratings. They require the full rated power bandwidth to be specified. Hypex themselves say it's only 5Khz on the NC-252.

View attachment 107021

Basically, Hypex are saying their amplifier cannot achieve full rated power above 5KHz for any period greater than 30 seconds without cooking the caps in the output filter. Are you saying Hypex are spreading FUD?

Still waiting for you to acknowledge that an amp doesn't need to have bandwidth to 200kHz.

 

[NTK]

Your 250W 'test' is only at 1kHz Alan.

It will not pass muster with FTC compliant ratings. They require the full rated power bandwidth to be specified. Hypex themselves say it's only 5Khz on the NC-252.

View attachment 107021

Basically, Hypex are saying their amplifier cannot achieve full rated power above 5KHz for any period greater than 30 seconds without cooking the caps in the output filter. Are you saying Hypex are spreading FUD?

Thanks for pointing out how ridiculous the FTC requirement is. The only purpose to send full power to the tweeter continuously is to intentionally fry it

 

[March Audio]

Your 250W 'test' is only at 1kHz Alan.

It will not pass muster with FTC compliant ratings. They require the full rated power bandwidth to be specified. Hypex themselves say it's only 5Khz on the NC-252.

View attachment 107021

Basically, Hypex are saying their amplifier cannot achieve full rated power above 5KHz for any period greater than 30 seconds without cooking the caps in the output filter. Are you saying Hypex are spreading FUD?

John this is comical. It doesnt say that in the NC252 data sheet.

Why is it you cant understand that there is no real world circumstance *EVER* that any amplifier will be required to deliver its full rated power (sine) at *ANY* frequency? Let alone for a continuous 5 minutes or even 30 seconds.

When playing music the crest factor means that any amplifier will hit its peak output voltage way, way before it reaches its max rated output with a sine wave. Power requirements also reduce dramatically with increasing frequency. The highest power requirements are typically below 500Hz.

Please inform yourself on the subject and stop repeatedly spreading your same old FUD.

This is the whole reason why some of the FTC tests are irrelevant and meaningless.

I am not going to comment further. In fact I think you are going on ignore as its impossible to have any sort of sensible conversation. You ignore any information and evidence presented to you and just repeat your dogma.

 

[AdamG]

Here is another test of the HYPEX ncore amp by archimago.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/01/measurements-hypex-ncore-nc252mp.html

 

[March Audio]

Here is another test of the HYPEX ncore amp by archimago.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/01/measurements-hypex-ncore-nc252mp.html

 

[restorer-john]

John this is comical. It doesnt say that in the NC252 data sheet.

Why is it you cant understand that there is no real world circumstance *EVER* that any amplifier will be required to deliver its full rated power (sine) at *ANY* frequency? Let alone for a continuous 5 minutes or even 30 seconds.

When playing music the crest factor means that any amplifier will hit its peak output voltage way, way before it reaches its max rated output with a sine wave. Power requirements also reduce dramatically with increasing frequency. The highest power requirements are typically below 500Hz.

Please inform yourself on the subject and stop repeatedly spreading your same old FUD.

This is the whole reason why some of the FTC tests are irrelevant and meaningless.

I am not going to comment further. In fact I think you are going on ignore as its impossible to have any sort of sensible conversation. You ignore any information and evidence presented to you and just repeat your dogma.

Ah, yes it does Alan. Read your Hypex datasheet! Here it is in black and white (and yellow highlights especially for you)

Maybe go familiarize yourself with full power bandwidth and report back when you are up to speed?

Yes it is indeed highly comical watching you constantly repeat the same ducking and weaving, vainly attempting to steer the narrative away from cold hard facts.

The facts are the Hypex amplifier data sheet numbers do not meet the US FTC requirements for advertising power output. You are merely parroting those numbers in your completed products.

They also cannot achieve their rated headline advertised power for 5 minutes at frequencies above 5kHz without a) shutting down or b) cooking the output caps. I know this from experience and you've shown absolutely ZERO evidence to the contrary. Not even once. Not over several years. All you show is a single 1kHz linked Youtube test. Not good enough. Not remotely good enough.

And your excuse is this?

But you advertise your amplifiers on your website in US$, sell to US citizens and yet you want to invoke an excuse like that? Seriously? I wonder what the FTC would make of that. Shall we ask them? I'm going to ask ATI for sure and see what they have to say, particularly their decision to de-rate the modules.

Nobody cares what you think is "irrelevant" when it comes to the Amplifier Rule. If you don't like it, lobby for change, but in the meantime, ensure your products are compliant. Simple.

Just rate them properly, like ATI apparently does and sell them with confidence in all markets, knowing they are compliant. It's easy, Japanese and US manufacturers have been doing that for nearly half a century. I bet you haven't even tested the modules at high frequencies. 1kHz is for babies. Nobody ever took 1kHz seriously as all amplifiers found it easy. Let's see some 10kHz, 15kHz and 20kHz extended tests at full power.

So, in the absence of a coherent answer, or evidence to the contrary from you, we must assume Hypex is telling the truth. And that is at odds with what you claim. How do you reconcile that?

I stayed out of this entire discussion until a few members asked me to chime in. I was enjoying a well earned break away from ASR. Sadly, I knew the direction you would take it. You cannot expect to control the narrative on everything Hypex on this forum. You cannot ignore or dismiss any valid criticism and facts everytime a discussion about Hypex comes up. You don't own the narrative in an open discussion here- the members do.

And I (and @pma and others) will be here everytime to keep you honest, you can count on that.

 

[tmtomh]

Ah, yes it does Alan. Read your Hypex datasheet! Here it is in black and white (and yellow highlights especially for you)

View attachment 107050

Maybe go familiarize yourself with full power bandwidth and report back when you are up to speed?

Yes it is indeed highly comical watching you constantly repeat the same ducking and weaving, vainly attempting to steer the narrative away from cold hard facts.

The facts are the Hypex amplifier data sheet numbers do not meet the US FTC requirements for advertising power output. You are merely parroting those numbers in your completed products.

They also cannot achieve their rated headline advertised power for 5 minutes at frequencies above 5kHz without a) shutting down or b) cooking the output caps. I know this from experience and you've shown absolutely ZERO evidence to the contrary. Not even once. Not over several years. All you show is a single 1kHz linked Youtube test. Not good enough. Not remotely good enough.

And your excuse is this?
View attachment 107051

But you advertise your amplifiers on your website in US$, sell to US citizens and yet you want to invoke an excuse like that? Seriously? I wonder what the FTC would make of that. Shall we ask them? I'm going to ask ATI for sure and see what they have to say, particularly their decision to de-rate the modules.

Nobody cares what you think is "irrelevant" when it comes to the Amplifier Rule. If you don't like it, lobby for change, but in the meantime, ensure your products are compliant. Simple.

Just rate them properly, like ATI apparently does and sell them with confidence in all markets, knowing they are compliant. It's easy, Japanese and US manufacturers have been doing that for nearly half a century. I bet you haven't even tested the modules at high frequencies. 1kHz is for babies. Nobody ever took 1kHz seriously as all amplifiers found it easy. Let's see some 10kHz, 15kHz and 20kHz extended tests at full power.

So, in the absence of a coherent answer, or evidence to the contrary from you, we must assume Hypex is telling the truth. And that is at odds with what you claim. How do you reconcile that?

I stayed out of this entire discussion until a few members asked me to chime in. I was enjoying a well earned break away from ASR. Sadly, I knew the direction you would take it. You cannot expect to control the narrative on everything Hypex on this forum. You cannot ignore or dismiss any valid criticism and facts everytime a discussion about Hypex comes up. You don't own the narrative in an open discussion here- the members do.

And I (and @pma and others) will be here everytime to keep you honest, you can count on that.

Why does an amplifier need to have power bandwidth above 35kHz?

 

[Koeitje]

OK I've just read through the data sheet for the nc500. Its states continuous output power as 100 watts. So now I'm more confused. The main power ratings stated are for peak power at 1% thd. Does this mean an nc500 amp would be really just be a 100 watt amp?

Hypex in thermal limited, it can "only" output a 100 watts for a sustained period (something like a couple of minutes). However you will never run into that situation in real life, your amplifier will never output a constant 100+ watts. Class A/B amplifiers hit their distortions limits long before their thermal limits. In practice that means that Hypex can easily provide more power to your speakers than your current amplifier.

 

[PierreV]

Are we going to again get a new capacitor like joust where both of you are correct from a different point of view?
For what purpose exactly?

 

[DonH56]

Why does an amplifier need to have power bandwidth above 35kHz?

1. To ensure low roll-off (flat frequency response), low distortion, and stability margin for signals below that frequency.
2. Hypex specs the power bandwidth to 35 kHz, that is from their own datasheet, so it should meet that spec. It does, but only for <30 seconds. That does not meet the FTC spec (as says John) but is probably good enough for the real world (as says Alan). That is based on the output coupling capacitor, not thermal limits, something I did not notice before.

Say you have a simple two-pole (second-order) roll-off someplace just above the audio band, and you want to spec 20 kHz to 1 dB. The two-pole response could be the output LC filter (which many amps have, not just class D, for RFI immunity). The simple transfer function is H = 1 / sqrt[1 + (f/fp)^2n] where fp is the pole frequency and n = 2 for a second-order response. If I churned the equation rightly (no promises!) then you need fp = f / rt2n[(1/H^2) - 1]. At -1 dB, H = 0.89, and choose f = 20 kHz for our rolloff. Then you need about 28 kHz bandwidth to get -1 dB at 20 kHz. Spec a little tighter, or provide a little more design margin, and 35 kHz is not unreasonable for full-power bandwidth.

HTH - Don