Was this aimed at ASR?

[Robin L]

Re: Dogpiling,

I landed at this forum after being dogpiled at Stereophile and Analog Planet for noting that the whole LP system of record/playback is inherently defective. I suggested that CCR at Woodstock would sound as good as it's going to on CD. Michael Fremer was on me like white on rice. Audiophile Science Review was one of the few "audiophile" sites that would acknowledge the reality of just how 'broken' LP playback is. However, the longer I'm here, the more I realize that getting all "het up" over other people's hobbies is in the next-door neighborhood of other outraged prejudices. Even though I can cite excellent reasons not to engage in the current vinyl gold rush*, I admittedly have a fondness for, and interest in, antique and otherwise obsolete audio gear. That doesn't mean I have any plans to pick up an old Gerrard turntable or Ampex recorder, but I still find the history and the objects themselves fascinating.

People often come to this forum, loaded for bear, "knowing" that DACs that measure the same sound different. That tube amplification is inherently superior to solid state. That "we", as a forum, are stupid and uninformed. Personally, being somewhat skeptical to begin with, the only thing I can know is that I can't know everything. ASR, as far as I can tell, is about "known knowns", that which is measurable and verifiable. And a lot of the high-end has been and always will be about magical thinking, the belief that a precious object has magical powers that will transform your life. Yes, there's a high price to pay, but its presence in your life will alter your consciousness. Available in red or black.

I've bought gear based on recommendations from this forum, also Solderdude's DIY Audio Heaven, and my consciousness hasn't been transformed, my prior biases have not been dislocated. However, this gear---Topping, Sennheiser, APO EQ---has given me more of what I was seeking. I want to hear the musical lines. I listen to a lot of polyphonic and otherwise multi-voiced music. Inferior equipment/recordings only can deal with the top line, not all those harmonizing or counterpointing voices underneath the loudest, clearest events. Listening to recordings I've heard a thousand times and finally clearly hearing the voices of the choir behind the lead singer, the tone of the guitar, the third harpsichord in Bach's concerto for three harpsichords, all of that is a move upwards. Does it sound like the performer is in the room with me? No. In fact, the most "performer in the room with me" I've heard was an acoustic 78 player playing an acoustic 78.

Feeding trolls seems to be the source of most of the grievances. My suggestion is that our hard working moderators give trolls shorter lengths of rope with which to hang themselves.

*Anybody else notice that most Cannabis news these days is from Fortune and Forbes?

 

[watchnerd]

However, the longer I'm here, the more I realize that getting all "het up" over other people's hobbies is in the next-door neighborhood of other outraged prejudices.

And after 25 years in the hobby, I'm just bored to death of the same old flame wars, from both sides, rehashing the same tropes.

And, frankly, watching grown men (yes, it's mostly men) waste so much time on the same squabbles for years on end, as if someday they're going to 'win', is alternatively disappointing or just simply not fun.

 

[raif71]

And after 25 years in the hobby, I'm just bored to death of the same old flame wars, from both sides, rehashing the same tropes.

And, frankly, that grown men (yes, it's mostly men) feel the need to waste so much time on the same squabbles for years on end, as if someday they're going to 'win', is alternatively disappointing or just simply not fun.

To me, not only it is fun but it is also downright funny

 

[watchnerd]

To me, not only it is fun but it is also downright funny

I used to find it funny.

Then I found dark humor in it.

Now I'm just bored.

Because it's the same set of arguments every single damn time.

I've seen the movie so much I've memorized the lines of all the actors.

 

[q3cpma]

I used to find it funny.

Then I found dark humor in it.

Now I'm just bored.

Because it's the same set of arguments every single damn time.

I've seen the movie so much I've memorized the lines of all the actors.

I'm pretty sure that people arguing are doing it not to convince people out of their religion, but to do something for the undecided. Personally, I don't have enough time for dumb people.

 

[Robin L]

I used to find it funny.

Then I found dark humor in it.

Now I'm just bored.

Because it's the same set of arguments every single damn time.

I've seen the movie so much I've memorized the lines of all the actors.

And here I sit so patiently
Waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of
Going through all these things twice

 

[watchnerd]

I'm pretty sure that people arguing are doing it not to convince people out of their religion, but to do something for the undecided. Personally, I don't have enough time for dumb people.

I wish it were so noble.

I think people are sometimes arguing because it makes them feel good to 'stick it to the other guy' and 'I really showed that guy'.

Plus, shared outrage is bonding.

Regardless of the motives, it's snore-fest after the 100th time.

Hobbies are supposed to be fun and, hopefully, stress relieving.

 

[raistlin65]

I think this side-debate/conflict is interesting and helps us understand the nut of the bigger issue. Of course, there are several uses of the word Religion which actually are not consistent with each other and could even be offensive if applied to someone who identifies with one definition but not another. So of course the definitions of "Excellent HiFi" and "audiophile" can be written in two ways, each equally supported, mutually exclusive, and offensive to the other tribe.

noun: religion

1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
   "ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
2. a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
   "consumerism is the new religion"

It is both more than that and is that at the same time.

The second definition you have given is a very modern metaphorical usage, where a thing is being described as like a religion. At the same time, it's usage is usually attributed by an outsider to a group in a derogatory way who typically would not themselves describe it as a religion.

So it's not useful at all for talking about religion versus tribalism in any way that allows one to examine the differences between how a group maybe exhibit tribalistic behaviors versus how their culture surrounding the thing is a religion. It's only useful in a soundbite kind of a way that indicates fanaticism. In which case, to be more precise about what one means, one should probably stick with the term fanaticism.

 

[q3cpma]

I wish it were so noble.

I think people are sometimes arguing because it makes them feel good to 'stick it to the other guy' and 'I really showed that guy'.

Plus, shared outrage is bonding.

Regardless of the motives, it's snore-fest after the 100th time.

Hobbies are supposed to be fun and, hopefully, stress relieving.

Well, it was probably wishful thinking on my part. On the other hand, if you stop talking to people about things they don't know anything about, you're not going to talk a lot; especially if you're not fond of small talk.

 

[BDWoody]

I used to find it funny.

Then I found dark humor in it.

Now I'm just bored.

Because it's the same set of arguments every single damn time.

I've seen the movie so much I've memorized the lines of all the actors.

I have roughly followed that path.

Since becoming moderator, I certainly see it differently.

There is way too much dog-piling. I think earnest and passionate newcomers are too often labeled as trolls and virtually attacked before anyone can see if there's a core of good faith in there. We may be inadvertently turning them into trolls because of our own actions.

I may ponder how to deal with that more.

In terms of people being ridiculed, I am not a fan. If there is an exception, it should be for those who profit from active deception, not the 'victims' who are likely being exposed to much of this for the first time.

I hesitate to get involved too early, unless it is Crystal clear someone is here only to cause trouble. Someone causing trouble is different from defensively struggling through that first handful of posts made in what they don't realize is a shark tank.

If we could support the positive, well put responses with maybe a simple 'like,' rather than a separate post with some version of how dumb the initial poster must be, that would help.

We need to focus not on showing people how dumb they are, but on how understanding the reality of it all isn't that hard. Fewer troll feeding posts would indeed make the place run more peacefully.

As long as the site is growing, we will see more newcomers with the same questions. We might need to figure out a better way to funnel them in.

 

[Dialectic]

Yes, it's just a hobby and all, but irrespective of whether Michael Fremer, Paul McGowan et al. believe their own bullshit, the audiophile manufacturer/reviewer ecosystem profits from the bullshit at the expense of others.

I thus don't mind piling on those members of the "other side" who make money from it.

Here's a video, previously linked by Amir, from a guy who figured out on his own that an audiophile product (on which he spent very hard-earned money) does nothing.

That said, the extent to which people like Jim Austin should be criticized should be balanced against the extent to which the criticism draws attention to them.

 

[watchnerd]

Yes, it's just a hobby and all, but irrespective of whether Michael Fremer, Paul McGowan et al. believe their own bullshit, the audiophile manufacturer/reviewer ecosystem profits from the bullshit at the expense of others.

I really don't care.

If people buy PS Audio gear and it makes them happy, why should that be an issue for me?

They're adults.

They can spend their money as they please.

Now if they ask a technical question, sure, it can be a chance to educate.

But I don't feel the need to go on a crusade to control how other people enjoy the hobby or spend their own money.

 

[raif71]

Yes, it's just a hobby and all, but irrespective of whether Michael Fremer, Paul McGowan et al. believe their own bullshit, the audiophile manufacturer/reviewer ecosystem profits from the bullshit at the expense of others.

I thus don't mind piling on those members of the "other side" who make money from it.

Here's a video, previously linked by Amir, from a guy who figured out on his own that an audiophile product (on which he spent very hard-earned money) does nothing.

That said, the extent to which people like Jim Austin should be criticized should be balanced against the extent to which the criticism draws attention to them.

I've seen one or two michael fremer youtubes. I think he's neat.

 

[Dialectic]

I really don't care.

If people buy PS Audio gear and it makes them happy, why should that be an issue for me?

They're adults.

They can spend their money as they please.

Because many of that manufacturer's products do nothing, and it's important to make sure that prospective buyers know that.

 

[watchnerd]

Because many of that manufacturer's products do nothing, and it's important to make sure that prospective buyers know that.

I really don't think it's that important.

As long as nobody is getting electrocuted, people will either happily enjoy the placebo, or self-educate, eventually.

I'm okay with either outcome.

 

[Dialectic]

I really don't think it's that important.

As long as nobody is getting electrocuted, people will either happily enjoy the placebo, or self-educate, eventually.

I'm okay with either outcome.

The guy who spent money on a PS Audio Noise Harvester and made the video linked above is a long-haul truck driver. He gave $100 to Paul McGowan (on the basis of McGowan's fraudulent claims) for something that cost less than $10 to make and makes power line noise worse. I'm not okay with that outcome.

The fact that audio is not as consequential as brain surgery or bomb detection is the only thing that has kept folks like Paul McGowan out of jail.

 

[Inner Space]

I really don't think it's that important.

As long as nobody is getting electrocuted, people will either happily enjoy the placebo, or self-educate, eventually.

I'm okay with either outcome.

Me too. Live and let live - plus I worry about the other 99% of my life ... I just bought some silk flowers to brighten up my mantelpiece, and I bet there's a silk-flower message board someplace that would excoriate me for getting ludicrously overpriced crap. What goes around comes around.

 

[SIY]

Me too. Live and let live - plus I worry about the other 99% of my life ... I just bought some silk flowers to brighten up my mantelpiece, and I bet there's a silk-flower message board someplace that would excoriate me for getting ludicrously overpriced crap. What goes around comes around.

If you bought them because they were claimed to remove room odors and they don't, you were defrauded by the seller. If you bought them because they were pretty, and no other claims were made, that's the free market.

 

[watchnerd]

The guy who spent money on a PS Audio Noise Harvester and made the video linked above is a long-haul truck driver. He gave $100 to Paul McGowan (on the basis of McGowan's fraudulent claims) for something that cost less than $10 to make and makes power line noise worse. I'm not okay with that outcome.

The fact that audio is not as consequential as brain surgery or bomb detection is the only thing that has kept folks like Paul McGowan out of jail.

You have a level of outrage that I don't share.

But if that gives you a sense of purpose, have at it.

Personally, I've only got so many hours in the day.

There are so many things I'd rather focus on in my own life -- educating myself, spending time with friends and family, exercising, training for competition, eating right, my investments, enjoying nature, environmental cleanup, rescuing animals, hunting, volunteering at the symphony, playing my bass, working my land, chopping wood for the winter.

Do I want to spend an hour arguing with PS Audio fans about why they're deluded?

Or would i rather, in that same hour, chop some wood, make a fire in the fireplace, put on some music, and make a nice meal?

 

[Inner Space]

Or would i rather, in that same hour, chop some wood, make a fire in the fireplace, put on some music, and make a nice meal?

You can do all that in an hour? Damn, I'm a slacker.