Perceived Recording Fidelity

[Anton S]

I stumbled across a short article on the Stereophile website today concerned with the psychoacoustic perception of recording quality. I'd like to share and get your thoughts on the conclusion that recordings generally perceived as the most faithful to the original performance are often the ones that have undergone the most post-processing. It's just that the engineers got all the ingredients exactly right during recording, mixing, and mastering to produce something that is perceived as "most lifelike," but never actually occurred in the physical world. Here's a link to the article ...

On Assessing Sonic Illusions

 

[Blumlein 88]

I didn't quite read the article that way. Not as the one with the most processing. But that minimalist recordings by comparison seem lackluster and often less real yes I agree. Plus how can you not agree that the majority of recordings going back at least 50 or 60 years are not of any real event to represent. So they can only seem artificial in an interesting way (think Pink Floyd a simulacra) or seem real in a way that is artificial (simulation) as there never was a real event.

I have a recording of a live concert in a Blues bar. It is very real sounding. You can hear the bar over to one side, clinking of glasses. You can even tell a couple of patrons are getting really drunk, drunker as the concert goes on. It imaged well, had a sense of the space in the bar etc. etc. Years later read an interview of the people who did the recording. It wasn't the most processed thing ever, but they explained how they were trying to accomplish something that seemed plausible and all the tricks they used to make that happen. It was nowhere near a minimalist live recording.

My complaint about the loudness wars is they end up with something so squashed it cannot seem real. It might sound appealing in some way, but they crush the life out of it until it can never seem real at all. There is a tasteful purposeful amount of processing that can increase the simulation of an event. They only leave room for creating a simulacra and not a good one at that.

 

[kemmler3D]

I've come around to the view that the dynamic range you need for a truly lifelike sound is not practical or really wanted by most listeners. You can always tell when you hear a real piano coming out of a window, vs. a recording. I believe this is somewhat, maybe, because of how sound disperses from the piano, but more likely because a real piano has a lot more DR in-room than a typical recording of a piano.

Reproducing the full DR of a piano on a really nice stereo is doable but not trivial. Doing it in a car or on headphones while you're on the plane is a nonstarter. For most listening situations, truly lifelike sound is actually very problematic. You have everything too quiet on one end, or tons of distortion and possible hearing damage on the other.

So a skilled engineer applies compression in such a way that it doesn't sound like they've done anything at all... which is really quite tricky.

 

[Robin L]

If one is talking about a rock record, there's no "there" there. That is to say, the resulting sound is a fabrication of the producers and engineers from multiple takes, sometimes in different studios, not a realistic rendition of an event that happened in real time in a specific location from a single listening position.

With classical records it's a different story. Which is why the antique Living Stereo and Living Presence recordings of the late 1950s still sound realistic. Although it is possible to record this kind of music using multitrack techniques, using the kinds of techniques in Rock production rarely work. My understanding is that some Opera productions involved recording the orchestra separately from the vocal soloists, but for the most part classical recordings are recorded in real time and in a single location. Of the two types of productions, classical recordings have a better chance of sounding realistic.

 

[sejarzo]

Multi-mic mixed recordings might sound great and be highly entertaining but as as noted, it's all just an illusion, not anything that was ever "real".

I agree re classical recordings. I loved the original Telarcs but the later ones seemed to have a much more distant perspective--not just a "mid-main floor versus middle of the first balcony" difference.

Our son was in one of the nation's best high school wind programs, and I got interested in not only transcriptions of orchestral pieces for wind ensemble that made up much of their repertoire but also modern works composed specifically for bands. The recordings done by the US Marine Corps Band are much, much more than Sousa marches, and the players are absolutely top-notch. A couple of members of the Marine Band engineer those recordings that are minimally miked with an occasional spot mike on a soloist, and they are as good a representation of a real concert event as I have heard. Many local libraries received their CDs for years, and I would encourage anyone to borrow a few if available and hear them.

 

[sejarzo]

Just recalled something our son's band director said. He was given permission by Leonard Bernstein to transcribe a number of Bernstein works for band, and he told me that Bernstein had refused to do multi-take recordings from some point (I think in the 1980s) because he didn't care for the sanitized sound of "studio" recordings in which the DG tonmeisters had as much input into the end product as the conductor and musicians.

 

[kemmler3D]

Multi-mic mixed recordings might sound great and be highly entertaining but as as noted, it's all just an illusion, not anything that was ever "real".

I agree re classical recordings. I loved the original Telarcs but the later ones seemed to have a much more distant perspective--not just a "mid-main floor versus middle of the first balcony" difference.

Our son was in one of the nation's best high school wind programs, and I got interested in not only transcriptions of orchestral pieces for wind ensemble that made up much of their repertoire but also modern works composed specifically for bands. The recordings done by the US Marine Corps Band are much, much more than Sousa marches, and the players are absolutely top-notch. A couple of members of the Marine Band engineer those recordings that are minimally miked with an occasional spot mike on a soloist, and they are as good a representation of a real concert event as I have heard. Many local libraries received their CDs for years, and I would encourage anyone to borrow a few if available and hear them.

One of the neat things about the USMC and other military recordings is they're public domain, being a government production and all. (at least, that is my understanding) So I suppose it would be kosher to share them here, even.

 

[DWPress]

And then there's the Trinity Sessions by the Cowboy Junkies....

 

[Robin L]

Multi-mic mixed recordings might sound great and be highly entertaining but as as noted, it's all just an illusion, not anything that was ever "real".

I agree re classical recordings. I loved the original Telarcs but the later ones seemed to have a much more distant perspective--not just a "mid-main floor versus middle of the first balcony" difference.

Our son was in one of the nation's best high school wind programs, and I got interested in not only transcriptions of orchestral pieces for wind ensemble that made up much of their repertoire but also modern works composed specifically for bands. The recordings done by the US Marine Corps Band are much, much more than Sousa marches, and the players are absolutely top-notch. A couple of members of the Marine Band engineer those recordings that are minimally miked with an occasional spot mike on a soloist, and they are as good a representation of a real concert event as I have heard. Many local libraries received their CDs for years, and I would encourage anyone to borrow a few if available and hear them.

Unless I'm mistaken, early Telarc recordings used the spaced omni array similar to Mercury Living Presence recordings of the stereo era. They also used an early version of one-bit recording, later developed into DSD. Haven't listened to enough Telarc recordings to tell the difference between early and later, but I recall that more microphones were used later on. Their Cleveland Quartet recordings of Beethoven string quartets I've been listening to recently sound close and detailed without sounding harsh.

While I wouldn't say Decca's (London in the US) early classical recordings were all that surreal sounding, their use of the Decca Microphone Tree resulted in a very vivid, close sound, like nothing one would hear in a concert hall save, perhaps, front row, center. The Phase 4 recordings were another matter altogether, quite surreal. Leopold Stokowski favored that multi-miked technique, with plenty of phase anomalies and solo instruments popping out of the mix. One would not hear such audio weirdness in this sort of music until Herbert von Karajan's DGG interventionist recordings of the 1970's. Columbia's efforts in the 1950s and 1960s were often a mess.

 

[12Many]

And then there's the Trinity Sessions by the Cowboy Junkies....

What are your thoughts on that recording?

 

[Blumlein 88]

And then there's the Trinity Sessions by the Cowboy Junkies....

It is kind of purist and kind of not. They used a Calrec Soundfield microphone. But did you know they used a PA speaker for Margot Timmons voice on several of the songs? Meaning her voice had its own microphone.

A Look Back….The Trinity Session (history – part 3 of 3) – Cowboy Junkies

cowboyjunkies.com

Oh, and I do agree it is a fantastic recording.

I've recorded musicians a few times and used a similar technique. I thought it was pretty good (but then I would wouldn't I?), it had a similar atmospheric sense of space in the recording. The musicians wanted to know why there was all this other noise. They didn't like it and wanted to hear themselves playing not the space of the church they were in.

 

[12Many]

It is kind of purist and kind of not. They used a Calrec Soundfield microphone. But did you know they used a PA speaker for Margot Timmons voice on several of the songs? Meaning her voice had its own microphone.

A Look Back….The Trinity Session (history – part 3 of 3) – Cowboy Junkies

cowboyjunkies.com

Oh, and I do agree it is a fantastic recording.

I've recorded musicians a few times and used a similar technique. I thought it was pretty good (but then I would wouldn't I?), it had a similar atmospheric sense of space in the recording. The musicians wanted to know why there was all this other noise. They didn't like it and wanted to hear themselves playing not the space of the church they were in.

Interesting. Thanks.

 

[sejarzo]

Unless I'm mistaken, early Telarc recordings used the spaced omni array similar to Mercury Living Presence recordings of the stereo era.

I think so...but I sold all those CDs to someone who paid dearly for original Telarc Japanese pressings some time ago. I know that the entire recording gear chain was documented on the inside back cover of the booklets but not the specific mic setup. I do recall that the earliest ones used Pearl condenser mics, unsure of the model. The only two Telarc CDs I still have are Baltimore/Zinman from 1992-93, and they both show the Neumann M-50b omni and the Schoeps M-221B with the switchable omni/cardioid MK-5 capsule.

 

[sejarzo]

Some well done minimalist recordings in this playlist. Single AEA ribbon stereo mic.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTpi6tyz1jeD2cqPd0vhuOo-aEz4jZ2mI

 

[sejarzo]

One of the neat things about the USMC and other military recordings is they're public domain, being a government production and all. (at least, that is my understanding) So I suppose it would be kosher to share them here, even.

Free downloads are available on their site, but mp3 only as I recall. In any case, those are good enough to get an idea of the recording perspective.

 

[DWPress]

What are your thoughts on that recording?

Sounds great on my system.

But did you know they used a PA speaker for Margot Timmons voice on several of the songs?

I did know that actually.

It's one of the albums I play for my younger friends who are entertaining a career in music production. As others have mentioned repeatedly in this thread and others - it's all about the awareness of the way things can be done in a recording studio, live session or any environment vs the way most people do it. The better your stereo system the greater the appreciation for dynamic range.

 

[somebodyelse]

One of the neat things about the USMC and other military recordings is they're public domain, being a government production and all. (at least, that is my understanding) So I suppose it would be kosher to share them here, even.

archive.org would probably be interested in adding them to the collection if they don't have them already. Someone who knows what they're looking for might find more than this:
https://archive.org/details/audio?tab=collection&query="marine+corps+band"

 

[sejarzo]

Looks to be 4 mics to cover two acoustic guitars, an electric bass, lead vocals, and backup vocals. The YouTube audio is obviously compressed/loud but I have the 24/48 FLAC and to me, it sounds both good and realistic (if that makes sense?) There is obviously reverb added, but we all know that dry vocals also don't sound right.

This discussion brought back a memory this morning. The engineer for quite a few of Patricia Barber's albums was also a Chicago-area Paradigm dealer about 20 years ago. He was impressed by the CDs I brought to audition them from a few wind ensembles and some acoustic groups that straddle bluegrass/country/jazz, and he told me that most of her CDs that are well-regarded in the audiophile world involved as few mics as possible but very, very careful positioning of the players and the mics.

 

[sejarzo]

As we're on the topic of perception and psychoacoustics, has anyone else been in what's regarded as a good hall, listening to a noted orchestra, and closed their eyes to see how that changes the experience?

We all tend to prefer stable and precise imaging in recordings as it enhances the perception of reality. But seated in the first balcony of Orchestra Hall in Chicago, when I closed my eyes, my "ears-only perception" of the precise location of percussion instruments often disappeared, or shifted drastically across the stage. My thoughts were often "wow, if I heard that on a playback system, I would immediately start adjusting the toe-in of the speakers."

A musician friend told me that he did the same thing and agreed. He regarded the visual experience of a totally acoustic ensemble in a good space as key to his enjoyment of a live performance, and that accurate tonality in a recording or playback system was more important to him than imaging because without the corresponding visuals, imaging was just an illusion of varying quality.

 

[Anton S]

As we're on the topic of perception and psychoacoustics, has anyone else been in what's regarded as a good hall, listening to a noted orchestra, and closed their eyes to see how that changes the experience?

We all tend to prefer stable and precise imaging in recordings as it enhances the perception of reality. But seated in the first balcony of Orchestra Hall in Chicago, when I closed my eyes, my "ears-only perception" of the precise location of percussion instruments often disappeared, or shifted drastically across the stage. My thoughts were often "wow, if I heard that on a playback system, I would immediately start adjusting the toe-in of the speakers."

A musician friend told me that he did the same thing and agreed. He regarded the visual experience of a totally acoustic ensemble in a good space as key to his enjoyment of a live performance, and that accurate tonality in a recording or playback system was more important to him than imaging because without the corresponding visuals, imaging was just an illusion of varying quality.

Humans are predominantly visual creatures, and visual stimulus often skews auditory perception. This is why I often listen to both live performances and home music reproduction with my eyes closed most of the time to allow my auditory input to dominate. At home, I also like to keep the room lights either dimmed of off completely and the window coverings closed.

EDIT:

Here's something else you can try - if you wear glasses, as I do, remove and replace them a few times with your eyes closed to experience the difference.