Helicopter
Major Contributor
I once had a pastor who liked to say of religions, "How many of you know they can't all be right?"
His point applies here too.
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- Thread starter Jas0_0
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His point applies here too.
That ritual is reserved for fallen women ..
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Compare the ADS L1230s pictured in this active Craigslist ad (Boston area)... looks like the L710 grew up and recomposed itself through speaker tectonics.
ADS L1230 and L780II Speakers - electronics - by owner - sale (craigslist.org)
I need to get my ass over to Boston and pick these up. Always been curious about ADS speakers.
HammersRocco
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I know I am replying to a 7 month old post, BUT I am happy that it does agree something I have posted when asking whether the audio press is really and truly journalistic or just an industry advocacy concern - but that is another discussion, however related.
In the past, the only way to give feedback to the audio press was the "readers letters" section; the audio press way of dealing with the disbelievers of the subjective approach communicating to the magazines to call them out was to cherry pick a letter that could be replied to dismissively, of course, without having to deal or giving the contributor a chance of a true discussion.
Then the world wide web and social media came. Now they cannot avoid the discussion. Not even in the forums they control, much less in forums like this, which probably has a bigger readership than any of the magazines. One thing was dismissing the late great Peter Aczel's "The Audio Critic", which was a labor of love driven by one man or dealing with the great Arnie Kruger in that semi-secret corner of the internet known as Usenet. A very different thing is dealing with the mass medium of first the world wide web, and then social media pouring derision on them.
v
Katji
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Yes, first 5 years or so that i used internet, it was just usenet and email. Mostly dialup modem to an account on a server at varsity. www existed then - before 1995 - but the original purpose was for academic document sharing and linking.
Tim Link
Major Contributor
Playing music is not the same as composing it. Each time somebody plays a composition they are reproducing it. Joni Mitchell commented on this. She said if someone paints a great piece of art, no one ever askes them, "Hey, paint me Starry Night again!" She liked painting because she only had to do a painting once. Now a copy of a painting made by a machine may have some constraints. Will it try to copy 3D effects, like thickness of paint in certain areas? Will it try to copy the canvas material properties so it feels the same? Will it try to scale to the exact same size, or blow it up bigger, or smaller? Will it use a reduced color set, maybe just black and white? Are these purely engineering decisions, or is it somewhat of a blend? Maybe there are engineering constraints that require some artful decisions to get a good looking result.
Jim Taylor
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Incorrect.
"Reproduction" is reproduction in kind. If a sound is recorded, it is reproduced as a sound. If an image is recorded, it is reproduced as an image. A book could be reproduced, but it would be reprinted as a book.
For a composition to be "reproduced", it would essentially need to be re-printed. It is, after all, printed matter in the original, and printed matter is essentially a set of instructions.
If you have the blueprints for a building, that's a set of instructions, just like a composition. You can PRODUCE the building, but that isn't reproducing the blueprints. That would take a photocopier.
If you have the cutting list for an aluminum boat, that's also a set of instructions. When you PRODUCE the boat, you're not reproducing the cutting list. That, too, would take a photocopier.
That's what a composition is ... it's a set of instructions. .If you read the instructions, you can then PRODUCE the music. OTOH, if you want to reproduce the composition (the instructions), you could use a photocopier and reprint nine copies. Then ten musicians could PRODUCE the music.
If you record all ten, you could then REPRODUCE the ten performances by playing them back on audio equipment. Each one would be just a little different, even though the instructions would all be exactly the same.
So if you reproduce instructions, they're still just instructions.
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Incorrect.
"Reproduction" is reproduction in kind. If a sound is recorded, it is reproduced as a sound. If an image is recorded, it is reproduced as an image. A book could be reproduced, but it would be reprinted as a book.
For a composition to be "reproduced", it would essentially need to be re-printed. It is, after all, printed matter in the original, and printed matter is essentially a set of instructions.
If you have the blueprints for a building, that's a set of instructions, just like a composition. You can PRODUCE the building, but that isn't reproducing the blueprints. That would take a photocopier.
If you have the cutting list for an aluminum boat, that's also a set of instructions. When you PRODUCE the boat, you're not reproducing the cutting list. That, too, would take a photocopier.
That's what a composition is ... it's a set of instructions. .If you read the instructions, you can then PRODUCE the music. OTOH, if you want to reproduce the composition (the instructions), you could use a photocopier and reprint nine copies. Then ten musicians could PRODUCE the music.
If you record all ten, you could then REPRODUCE the ten performances by playing them back on audio equipment. Each one would be just a little different, even though the instructions would all be exactly the same.
So if you reproduce instructions, they're still just instructions.
Ok I can follow your pedantry but consider that reproduce means 1. produce a copy or 2. produce something very similar to (something else) in a different medium or context.
The latter is pretty much what performing a musical score/composition/set of instruction is.
And if we consider recorded music, we can also say that 1. copies of the recording exist (whether LP, CD, digital etc) and 2. that we reproduce them in a different medium (sound patterns in air in the listening room) via normal playback apparatus. Transducers do that thing, of course.
Jim Taylor
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I believe it's not pedantic to point out that the second definition in your first sentence has the qualifier "something very similar". An orchestra performance is not "something very similar" to a piece of sheet music.
That's why I mentioned "reproduction in kind."
tmtomh
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Yep - that “something very similar” phrase is where the concepts of “a slight difference in degree” and “a difference in kind” get improperly conflated, with the result that the argument assumes what it claims to prove.
Neither of you can manage to finish the sentence to read 'in a different medium or context'? . Surprising lack of comprehension. Or derailed by the first shiny cherry, perhaps.
That is where you come unstuck. Reproduction can be, but is not limited to that. And @Tim Link who you responded to, actually didn't say that in the first instance.
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Jim Taylor
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.... and having lots of fun doing it!
I especially enjoy discussions with @Axo1989 . He's one of my favorite members here. His posts are always cogent and factual, with none of the emotional outbursts and sly insults more common to various other, more junior members.
I just love him to pieces.
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Tim Link
Major Contributor
Your point is well taken. I tried to write a well thought out response but it's now 12:30 a.m. and I'm overthinking it. I don't think I'm incorrect but I've gone out of bounds in terms of conventional use of terminology. Google's AI summary basically says my thoughts with the following:
Yes, it can be said that musicians are reproducing musical compositions when they play them,
but it is more accurately described in legal and musicological terms as a performance or interpretation of the underlying work.
I think speakers are automated performers of a type. They perform the instructions in the recording, and there is some interpretation there. So they are more than just reproducing but also interpreting the recording. How exactly they do that can produce more or less pleasing results to different listeners. I've been messing around with the crossover settings and equalization of my DIY speakers lately and I find that I can get various differences that have very interesting psychological effects on me, making me feel different about recordings, highlighting different aspects of the music.
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Jim Taylor
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I understand what you're saying, but I see that as anthropomorphism.
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