Why do passive speakers still exist?

[Pearljam5000]

Every time i try telling audiophiles that active monitors are superior to passives(mostly, at the same price) they laugh at me.
It's a psychological barrier.

 

[thewas]

Yes but it is also a different market.

Yes, but hifi used to be a mass market and a hifi system would be found in almost every western world home in the 80s/90s and now these systems have be replaced by soundbars, BT and wireless speakers.

 

[Chrispy]

Every time i try telling audiophiles that active monitors are superior to passives(mostly, at the same price) they laugh at me.
It's a psychological barrier.

Audiophiles often hear with their eyes, too.

 

[Doodski]

Every time i try telling audiophiles that active monitors are superior to passives(mostly, at the same price) they laugh at me.
It's a psychological barrier.

We've been advised for decades that putting the electronics inside a speakers is bad. It's hard to break that. Obviously Genelec and Neumann have changed that but the stigma still remains.

 

[EJ3]

Genelec guarantees parts for 30 years after purchase

OH boy: one high $ company that, while many of us are willing to invest in our hobby, the majority of us are not willing to invest that much for the TOTL from one company. That is NOT freedom of choice. They do have a 40 year history but I have lived in countries on 4 continents, worked at radio stations, done recording production work for up to 60 piece bands, ran sound for both well known blues and rock bands and have never seen a Genelec speaker in person and do not personally know anyone who ones Genelec speakers (if so, they haven't told me about them). I have over 500 people on my phone list and likely know about 10,000 people by sight and/or voice. Most people who have met me know my interest in audio gear, making me reasonably sure that if anyone that I have encounterrd more than momentarily would have told me somethik like 'I have or have a friend who has these awesome speakers. Their name is Genelec. I, being just a few years from being able to receive full SS retirement, had never heard of GENELEC until this year, here on this forum. So why should I trust Genelec speaker if I have never been any place in my travels that I have seen one (or even know someone personally that has seen one? Perhaps they are so incredibly wonderful and reliable that nothing will happen to one bought today that would cause it to die in less than 30 years. But I am sure that there are many thousands who are like me: don't know about them, haven't seen them and un-willing to spend money on them until they know a few people who have been experiencing them for a number of years.
Until that happens, I will be making choices other than them. Most likely passive speakers.

 

[Pearljam5000]

OH boy: one high $ company that, while many of us are willing to invest in our hobby, the majority of us are not willing to invest that much for the TOTL from one company. That is NOT freedom of choice. They do have a 40 year history but I have lived in countries on 4 continents, worked at radio stations, done recording production work for up to 60 piece bands, ran sound for both well known blues and rock bands and have never seen a Genelec speaker in person and do not personally know anyone who ones Genelec speakers (if so, they haven't told me about them). I have over 500 people on my phone list and likely know about 10,000 people by sight and/or voice. Most people who have met me know my interest in audio gear, making me reasonably sure that if anyone that I have encounterrd more than momentarily would have told me somethik like 'I have or have a friend who has these awesome speakers. Their name is Genelec. I, being just a few years from being able to receive full SS retirement, had never heard of GENELEC until this year, here on this forum. So why should I trust Genelec speaker if I have never been any place in my travels that I have seen one (or even know someone personally that has seen one? Perhaps they are so incredibly wonderful and reliable that nothing will happen to one bought today that would cause it to die in less than 30 years. But I am sure that there are many thousands who are like me: don't know about them, haven't seen them and un-willing to spend money on them until they know a few people who have been experiencing them for a number of years.
Until that happens, I will be making choices other than them. Most likely passive speakers.

So you're basically blaming Genelec for not being reliable or any good because you haven't heard of them and because your friends don't know them?
I don't understand that logic
I don't think there's a studio in the world without a Genelec monitor(small or big)
They're probably the most famous monitors in the pro audio world besides ATC.

 

[EJ3]

We've been advised for decades that putting the electronics inside a speakers is bad. It's hard to break that. Obviously Genelec and Neumann have changed that but the stigma still remains.

Most other companies have not designed the integration of the electronics that hold up to the particular demands of active speakers. So their are 2 exceptions to the rule Genelec & Neuman (and perhaps a few others). Many also have to deal with the WAF who many times does not see great things with this 'new design' of an integrated speaker or of it making parts of 'our' system obsolete. For many it has to have 'Curb appeal' for the WAF and be something well known for approval.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Dozens of studio monitor manufacturers produce active monitors in which the electronics are inside the loudspeaker enclosures. Even PA speaker manufacturers do this as a matter of course.

 

[Pearljam5000]

We've been advised for decades that putting the electronics inside a speakers is bad. It's hard to break that. Obviously Genelec and Neumann have changed that but the stigma still remains.

Pro monitors must be reliable for years or else no one would buy them and that would kill a company in such a niche market , that's why you can expect great durability from Genelec, Neumann and others.

 

[Chrispy]

So you're basically blaming Genelec for not being reliable or any good because you haven't heard of them and because your friends don't know them?
I don't understand that logic
I don't think there's a studio in the world without a Genelec monitor(small or big)
They're probably the most famous monitors in the pro audio world besides ATC.

The studio world is relatively small, tho. I know enough now about Genelec and ATC that I wouldn't worry about the quality of their products. When I did get into some studios back in the days I did logistics work for bands, I saw mostly JBL

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Yes, but hifi used to be a mass market and a hifi system would be found in almost every western world home in the 80s/90s and now these systems have be replaced by soundbars, BT and wireless speakers.

Times change.

 

[EJ3]

So you're basically blaming Genelec for not being reliable or any good because you haven't heard of them and because your friends don't know them?
I don't understand that logic
I don't think there's a studio in the world without a Genelec monitor(small or big)
They're probably the most famous monitors in the pro audio world besides ATC.

My home is not a studio. Nor will it look like one. Or have a dedicated sound room. My reason for having separates (multiple APT/Holman preamps (so I can run quad or other multi-channel stuff, separate amplifiers (some being run bridged mono), separate crossovers and passive subs because I want to be able to replace/mix & match & fiddle around, adjust for my intended purposes and if a part goes down (Example: amp. speaker) I just throw in another of that 0ne part (which I likely have on hand) and repair the offending part. With an active, if any part of it goes down, I am not likely to just have that module on hand to replace it & I am not likely to have a complete extra active on hand to stick in it's place while the other one is being repaired. Yes, like many on this site, I have more than one system but I do not care to have downtime in any of them. Actives certainly have their uses but, at this point in time, I do not see any for me in the near future. Naturally, that may change in the up coming times. I do have a future system plan that would include a pair of actives (if some come out with dual voltage, which some of my current stuff is). It would also be my first system to also not include a TT or RTR since I started this journey in the 1970's (when I was 14),

 

[Doodski]

My reason for having separates (multiple APT/Holman preamps (so I can run quad or other multi-channel stuff, separate amplifiers (some being run bridged mono), separate crossovers and passive subs because I want to be able to replace/mix & match & fiddle around

I ran a tri-amp'd system with active crossover for years and it was ace for fiddling with although to be honest once I had it dialed in I rarely touched it unless I let a friend play with it to get a handle on it's operation. I heartily recommend active crossovers. Genelec does have the GLM system for fiddling and it's supposed to be pretty good. That interests me.
https://www.genelec.com/glm

 

[Helicopter]

The Amazon list shows consumer grade stuff. Nothing over $500 in top 100. I have a lot of the stuff in the top 10... but I am not going to use any of it for serious listening.

Consumers have moved to cheaper stuff for several reasons, mostly convenience, features, and acceptable (to most people) performance at low (less tham 500 dollars) prices.

 

[raistlin65]

Yes, but this is what the current market is.
By the way soundbars can be quite well and impressive sounding like the Sennheiser Ambeo or big Yamaha YSP sound projectors who use DSP sound steering with several drivers, only then they cost four digit.

There is always a part of the consumer market that gravitates toward worse performing equipment. Don't you remember just five years ago where every person you saw on the street had Beats on their head?

So I don't feel like the sky is falling for those who want better because there's currently an interest in Bluetooth and wireless speakers and soundbars.

 

[restorer-john]

and an onboard amplifier is much cheaper than a stand-alone commercial amplifier.

Let's face it, active speakers use bottom of the barrel amplification because they know nobody is holding them to account in all the usual amplifier performance parameters. They can get away with distortion levels that would be laughed out of the room, because the speaker drivers themselves have more distortion. The power output claims are ludicrous and blatantly deceptive, knowing nobody will test the internal amplifiers. The noise levels are generally very poor, hence every man and his deaf dog are complaining about audible hiss. The only exceptions are, ironically, the hypex plate amplifiers, which perform pretty well.

Even most of the expensive actives have audible hiss if you sit very close in a silent room. In most cases, if the hiss bothers you, it's likelier that you have a problem with your ears (hyperacusis) or brain (OCD) than that you have one with the loudspeakers.

Audible hiss from an active loudspeaker precludes it entirely from the HiFi playground. Hiss (noise) is an anathema to high fidelity. It's the N in THD+N and by far the most intrusive and bothersome component of the metric. There is no free pass for a hissing active speaker. Strike one and it's out. Kicked to the kerbside pickup where it belongs.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Let's face it, active speakers use bottom of the barrel amplification because they know nobody is holding them to account in all the usual amplifier performance parameters. They can get away with distortion levels that would be laughed out of the room, because the speaker drivers themselves have more distortion. The power output claims are ludicrous and blatantly deceptive, knowing nobody will test the internal amplifiers. The noise levels are generally very poor, hence every man and his deaf dog are complaining about audible hiss. The only exceptions are, ironically, the hypex plate amplifiers, which perform pretty well.



Audible hiss from a active loudspeaker precludes it entirely from the HiFi playground. Hiss (noise) is an anathema to high fidelity. It's the N in THD+N and by far the most intrusive and bothersome component of the metric. There is no free pass for a hissing active speaker. Strike one and it's out. Kicked to the kerbside pickup where it belongs.

A little more strongly worded than I would have put it, but you are of course right

Re: tweeter hiss on many active loudspeakers, I wonder whether some of these amps are so noisy that even an L-pad doesn't bring the noise down to acceptable levels, or whether manufacturers are not padding the tweeter for some other reason (and if so, what)?

 

[tmtomh]

All the actives I own hiss(Genelec 8030c, 8351b, JBL 308p), though some are worse than others.

I know levels of hiss vary among brands and models, and that for far-field listening a very low-level hiss might not be a major issue. But with that said, for me personally, if I shelled out $8k for a pair of 8351s and I could hear them hiss when I walked up to my equipment rack to change a disc, I'd want to throw them, and myself, off a bridge.

No disrespect to any happy owner of them - it's just a personal pet peeve of mine. I feel that the relative importance and attention paid to noise vs distortion among many audiophiles is out of whack, with the former being too often ignored.

 

[tmtomh]

Let's face it, active speakers use bottom of the barrel amplification because they know nobody is holding them to account in all the usual amplifier performance parameters. They can get away with distortion levels that would be laughed out of the room, because the speaker drivers themselves have more distortion. The power output claims are ludicrous and blatantly deceptive, knowing nobody will test the internal amplifiers. The noise levels are generally very poor, hence every man and his deaf dog are complaining about audible hiss. The only exceptions are, ironically, the hypex plate amplifiers, which perform pretty well.

Audible hiss from an active loudspeaker precludes it entirely from the HiFi playground. Hiss (noise) is an anathema to high fidelity. It's the N in THD+N and by far the most intrusive and bothersome component of the metric. There is no free pass for a hissing active speaker. Strike one and it's out. Kicked to the kerbside pickup where it belongs.

Agree 100%.

 

[Dialectic]

Let's face it, active speakers use bottom of the barrel amplification because they know nobody is holding them to account in all the usual amplifier performance parameters. They can get away with distortion levels that would be laughed out of the room, because the speaker drivers themselves have more distortion. The power output claims are ludicrous and blatantly deceptive, knowing nobody will test the internal amplifiers. The noise levels are generally very poor, hence every man and his deaf dog are complaining about audible hiss. The only exceptions are, ironically, the hypex plate amplifiers, which perform pretty well.

I disagree with every statement here.

I've seen no evidence that active speaker manufacturers tend to lie about power output or that noise levels in active loudspeakers owe to poor amplification. The noise levels in active loudspeakers are attributable to their inherent gain structure, which tends to make noise from the tweeter more audible than it would be in a passive loudspeaker.

I have put my ear up to the tweeters on Kii Threes, Dutch & Dutch 8Cs, some wildly expensive model of Goldmund active loudspeakers, Genelecs, Focals, etc. With all of those active speakers, I could hear hiss by putting my ear within a foot of the tweeter. I see no evidence that that level of hiss is audible from a reasonable listening distance, and it certainly has not deterred professional users from adopting these models (with the exception of the Goldmunds).

I do not think the chip amps in certain JBL and Genelec models, or the maligned Pascal modules in the D&D 8Cs and GGNTKTs, represent the bottom of the barrel in amplification. To see the bottom of that barrel, one need not look further than the pages of Stereophile.

Audible hiss from an active loudspeaker precludes it entirely from the HiFi playground. Hiss (noise) is an anathema to high fidelity. It's the N in THD+N and by far the most intrusive and bothersome component of the metric. There is no free pass for a hissing active speaker. Strike one and it's out. Kicked to the kerbside pickup where it belongs.

A small amount of tweeter hiss--even if audible from the listening position--is not more bothersome than distortion. Such hiss will be masked while the music plays. Distortion will not.