Neumann KH420 vs Genelec 8361A

[samysound]

I'll check out SVS, thanks.

Im using a pair of svs sb2000s with the genelec 8341 in a medium size room with minidsp/dirac to integrate everything. no lack of clean volume for me and svs subs are pretty good for the money (I got mine on sale since the new "pro" version is out). The svs subs seam to be reasonably flat out to a little over 200hz and I am using a 100hz crossover point.

 

[Sprint]

Im using a pair of svs sb2000s with the genelec 8341 in a medium size room with minidsp/dirac to integrate everything. no lack of clean volume for me and svs subs are pretty good for the money (I got mine on sale since the new "pro" version is out). The svs subs seam to be reasonably flat out to a little over 200hz and I am using a 100hz crossover point.

@samysound Why didn't you use GLM for speakers? IF you have used, how do you find it against minidsp/DIRAC. In my case, I am using 8340 as LCR, 8330 as surrounds with GLM and use Yamaha RX-V775 as AVR and 2 SVS SB-12 NSD subs. I am not sure if the sub measurements are good as I heard YPAO does not do a good job.

So the thinking is if I will have a good sq improvement with one of the options below. What seems to be the better options?
Option 1 - Cheapest: change to minidsp for sub integration / sub management. Not sure if Dirac is needed only for sub measurement as I still plan to use GLM for speakers
Option 2 - modest: replace AVR with Denon X-3700 which has better multi sub measurements and sub integration.
Option 3 - expensive: Retain the current AVR. Replace SVS subs with Genelec 7360 * 2. Use GLM to have a good speakers & sub integration. But this option is expensive and may take another year to two to go for this.

@echopraxia @richard12511 since you both have Genelec set ups with Genelec subs, what would you recommend? Thanks a lot for your help!

Here is a picture of my room.

 

[samysound]

@samysound Why didn't you use GLM for speakers? IF you have used, how do you find it against minidsp/DIRAC. In my case, I am using 8340 as LCR, 8330 as surrounds with GLM and use Yamaha RX-V775 as AVR and 2 SVS SB-12 NSD subs. I am not sure if the sub measurements are good as I heard YPAO does not do a good job.

So the thinking is if I will have a good sq improvement with one of the options below. What seems to be the better options?
Option 1 - Cheapest: change to minidsp for sub integration / sub management. Not sure if Dirac is needed only for sub measurement as I still plan to use GLM for speakers
Option 2 - modest: replace AVR with Denon X-3700 which has better multi sub measurements and sub integration.
Option 3 - expensive: Retain the current AVR. Replace SVS subs with Genelec 7360 * 2. Use GLM to have a good speakers & sub integration. But this option is expensive and may take another year to two to go for this.

@echopraxia @richard12511 since you both have Genelec set ups with Genelec subs, what would you recommend? Thanks a lot for your help!

Here is a picture of my room.

As far as I know, GLM is not designed to work with non-genelec subs. I believe GLM sets phase/delay and volume automatically with genelec GLM equipped subs. With Dirac/minidsp, the subwoofer level and phase/delay must be set "manually" (e.g. using REW) as dirac only corrects for two channels. If minidsp offers dirac bass control in the future, ease of subwoofer integration may improve....

I cant speak to GLM vs Dirac vs AVR for correction as I have not compared myself.

 

[Sancus]

As far as I know, GLM is not designed to work with non-genelec subs. I believe GLM sets phase/delay and volume automatically with genelec GLM equipped subs. With Dirac/minidsp, the subwoofer level and phase/delay must be set "manually" (e.g. using REW) as dirac only corrects for two channels. If minidsp offers dirac bass control in the future, ease of subwoofer integration may improve....

I cant speak to GLM vs Dirac vs AVR for correction as I have not compared myself.

Dirac w/minidsp corrects for as many channels as you like if you buy the units with multi-channel support ie DDRC-88A etc.

You are correct there is no support for multiple subwoofers controlled by multiple channels, so you'd either use the Y-cable single channel approach, or have to use Multi-Sub Optimizer and manual EQ.

I emailed Genelec support to see if they have any information about improvements to GLM multiple subwoofer support. From my perspective, the limited functionality that exists in GLM3 does not justify the pricing and I can't see a good reason to buy Genelec subs if you want a multi-sub setup. For one sub, it's certainly good enough.

 

[richard12511]

@samysound Why didn't you use GLM for speakers? IF you have used, how do you find it against minidsp/DIRAC. In my case, I am using 8340 as LCR, 8330 as surrounds with GLM and use Yamaha RX-V775 as AVR and 2 SVS SB-12 NSD subs. I am not sure if the sub measurements are good as I heard YPAO does not do a good job.

So the thinking is if I will have a good sq improvement with one of the options below. What seems to be the better options?
Option 1 - Cheapest: change to minidsp for sub integration / sub management. Not sure if Dirac is needed only for sub measurement as I still plan to use GLM for speakers
Option 2 - modest: replace AVR with Denon X-3700 which has better multi sub measurements and sub integration.
Option 3 - expensive: Retain the current AVR. Replace SVS subs with Genelec 7360 * 2. Use GLM to have a good speakers & sub integration. But this option is expensive and may take another year to two to go for this.

@echopraxia @richard12511 since you both have Genelec set ups with Genelec subs, what would you recommend? Thanks a lot for your help!

Here is a picture of my room.

I'm brand new to GLM(just got my monitors/subs this week), so I'll probably be able to give a better answer in a few weeks, but for now, I would take @echopraxia's advice more seriously than mine. He's likely got much more experience at this point.

I just signed up for and installed the GLM 4 Beta today. Was really great to see that GLM 4 actually works on my new Macbook Pro, so no more having to use the old machine with a cracked screen . I'm going through this training course atm, which I would recommend you do too. You can skip most of the first video, as they mostly just go through Genelec's history(unless you want to hear that). The second video is more useful and walks you through the GLM setup process. Towards the end, they get into subwoofer integration, and it looks like you have the option to EQ the subs individually or as a whole. Based on what I saw, the phase alignment in GLM seems superior to Dirac Live 3.0. With GLM, you choose a sub and a monitor you wish to phase align, then it plays a bunch of quick start and stop noises to automatically phase align the two to within 15°.

***I think you can individually time align with Dirac Live as well, but it requires an AVR with stereo(or more) subwoofer outs. The way I'm using Dirac atm is all my subwoofers are in mono coming out of the first subwoofer out of my AVR. In this configuration, Dirac sees all 4 subs as one sub and just EQs the overall response and timing.

In terms of Dirac's vs GLM's actual correction ability? I have heard that Dirac is quite a bit more sophisticated in the types of EQ it can perform, which should theoretically lead to better sound quality, but I have nowhere near enough personal experience with GLM to say if that's true or not(yet). I will be experimenting with using Dirac vs using GLM vs using GLM + Dirac in the next few weeks.

Manually phase aligning subs with Dirac Bass Module(different than Dirac Bass Management, which isn't really available yet) is not super difficult, but it is time consuming. For me it was a lot of back and forth of making an adjustment, remeasuring with REW, repeat, repeat, etc. I would also take a look at @QMuse's guide for manually time aligning subwoofers to mains. Lots of good info in that thread.


Gun to my head?

Dirac + SVS has higher sound quality potential
GLM + Genelec subs will be easier to get good sound

SVS option is also cheaper, given you already have the subs.

Like I said in the beginning though, I have little to no experience with GLM, so my opinion is very subject to change as I learn more.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I'm brand new to GLM(just got my monitors/subs this week), so I'll probably be able to give a better answer in a few weeks, but for now, I would take @echopraxia's advice more seriously than mine. He's likely got much more experience at this point.

I just signed up for and installed the GLM 4 Beta today. Was really great to see that GLM 4 actually works on my new Macbook Pro, so no more having to use the old machine with a cracked screen . I'm going through this training course atm, which I would recommend you do too. You can skip most of the first video, as they mostly just go through Genelec's history(unless you want to hear that). The second video is more useful and walks you through the GLM setup process. Towards the end, they get into subwoofer integration, and it looks like you have the option to EQ the subs individually or as a whole. Based on what I saw, the phase alignment in GLM seems superior to Dirac Live 3.0. With GLM, you choose a sub and a monitor you wish to phase align, then it plays a bunch of quick start and stop noises to automatically phase align the two to within 15°.

***I think you can individually time align with Dirac Live as well, but it requires an AVR with stereo(or more) subwoofer outs. The way I'm using Dirac atm is all my subwoofers are in mono coming out of the first subwoofer out of my AVR. In this configuration, Dirac sees all 4 subs as one sub and just EQs the overall response and timing.

In terms of Dirac's vs GLM's actual correction ability? I have heard that Dirac is quite a bit more sophisticated in the types of EQ it can perform, which should theoretically lead to better sound quality, but I have nowhere near enough personal experience with GLM to say if that's true or not(yet). I will be experimenting with using Dirac vs using GLM vs using GLM + Dirac in the next few weeks.

Manually phase aligning subs with Dirac Bass Module(different than Dirac Bass Management, which isn't really available yet) is not super difficult, but it is time consuming. For me it was a lot of back and forth of making an adjustment, remeasuring with REW, repeat, repeat, etc. I would also take a look at @QMuse's guide for manually time aligning subwoofers to mains. Lots of good info in that thread.


Gun to my head?

Dirac + SVS has higher sound quality potential
GLM + Genelec subs will be easier to get good sound

SVS option is also cheaper, given you already have the subs.

Like I said in the beginning though, I have little to no experience with GLM, so my opinion is very subject to change as I learn more.

Where's the review of your new Genelecs

 

[Sprint]

I'm brand new to GLM(just got my monitors/subs this week), so I'll probably be able to give a better answer in a few weeks, but for now, I would take @echopraxia's advice more seriously than mine. He's likely got much more experience at this point.

I just signed up for and installed the GLM 4 Beta today. Was really great to see that GLM 4 actually works on my new Macbook Pro, so no more having to use the old machine with a cracked screen . I'm going through this training course atm, which I would recommend you do too. You can skip most of the first video, as they mostly just go through Genelec's history(unless you want to hear that). The second video is more useful and walks you through the GLM setup process. Towards the end, they get into subwoofer integration, and it looks like you have the option to EQ the subs individually or as a whole. Based on what I saw, the phase alignment in GLM seems superior to Dirac Live 3.0. With GLM, you choose a sub and a monitor you wish to phase align, then it plays a bunch of quick start and stop noises to automatically phase align the two to within 15°.

***I think you can individually time align with Dirac Live as well, but it requires an AVR with stereo(or more) subwoofer outs. The way I'm using Dirac atm is all my subwoofers are in mono coming out of the first subwoofer out of my AVR. In this configuration, Dirac sees all 4 subs as one sub and just EQs the overall response and timing.

In terms of Dirac's vs GLM's actual correction ability? I have heard that Dirac is quite a bit more sophisticated in the types of EQ it can perform, which should theoretically lead to better sound quality, but I have nowhere near enough personal experience with GLM to say if that's true or not(yet). I will be experimenting with using Dirac vs using GLM vs using GLM + Dirac in the next few weeks.

Manually phase aligning subs with Dirac Bass Module(different than Dirac Bass Management, which isn't really available yet) is not super difficult, but it is time consuming. For me it was a lot of back and forth of making an adjustment, remeasuring with REW, repeat, repeat, etc. I would also take a look at @QMuse's guide for manually time aligning subwoofers to mains. Lots of good info in that thread.


Gun to my head?

Dirac + SVS has higher sound quality potential
GLM + Genelec subs will be easier to get good sound

SVS option is also cheaper, given you already have the subs.

Like I said in the beginning though, I have little to no experience with GLM, so my opinion is very subject to change as I learn more.

@richard12511 Thanks a lot!! I am really looking forward to your opinion on GLM when you set them up in a few weeks. In the next weeks, I will set up GLM 4.0. Currently I am on GLM 3.0. As I first step, I will go for Minidsp to get a quick win. Next step will be Genelec subs and the next upgrade could be a AVR with balanced output which measures like a Denon x3700H.

One question though: as per your experience would you recommend minidsp with Dirac or should I go for without Dirac though it will be only for subs integration and measurements. For Genelecs, I will continue to use GLM 4.0. Do you think would this set up of SVS + minidsp (with or without DIRAC) + Yamaha AVR RX-V775 + Genelec speakers + GLM 4.0 would be a good quick win, correct? Do you also see that way?

 

[Sprint]

@echopraxia What are your thoughts / experience?

 

[q3cpma]

@richard12511 Thanks a lot!! I am really looking forward to your opinion on GLM when you set them up in a few weeks. In the next weeks, I will set up GLM 4.0. Currently I am on GLM 3.0. As I first step, I will go for Minidsp to get a quick win. Next step will be Genelec subs and the next upgrade could be a AVR with balanced output which measures like a Denon x3700H.

One question though: as per your experience would you recommend minidsp with Dirac or should I go for without Dirac though it will be only for subs integration and measurements. For Genelecs, I will continue to use GLM 4.0. Do you think would this set up of SVS + minidsp (with or without DIRAC) + Yamaha AVR RX-V775 + Genelec speakers + GLM 4.0 would be a good quick win, correct? Do you also see that way?

Why would the AVR be an upgrade?

 

[Sprint]

Why would the AVR be an upgrade?

Denon x3700H as Yamahas were brought in 2014. Denon will have more formats and better subwoofer management and integration. I have another post on this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...enon-avr-x3700h-vs-existing-yamaha-avr.17532/.

Any recommendation from your experience?

 

[q3cpma]

Denon x3700H as Yamahas were brought in 2014. Denon will have more formats and better subwoofer management and integration. I have another post on this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...enon-avr-x3700h-vs-existing-yamaha-avr.17532/.

Any recommendation from your experience?

Oh, forgot that TV users had all that proprietary audio format problem. Personally, I just use an HTPC with stuff I ripped.

 

[Sprint]

Oh, forgot that TV users had all that proprietary audio format problem. Personally, I just use an HTPC with stuff I ripped.

I thought of moving to HTPC as well (I have a Mac mini) and abolish my AVR. However I am not sure, if my family will find it easy to use. Currently, all my source is from Apple 4K TV. It is very fast to boot and easy to use. If there is a HTPC that accepts a Apple 4K TV input via HDMI, it will still be a thinkable option. But then I guess all subwoofer management correction will be in HTPC. I would be happy to move away from Yamaha and someday I want to go everything digital as my Genelecs accepts AES. But I am not sure if the whole set up is user friendly, supporting all Dolby formats, a decent 2.2 channel music and also cost effective compared to an AVR.

BTW what do you use between HTPC and speakers. Moreover do you use streaming services like Netflix and Youtube? Would be very interesting to learn about your set up.

 

[okok]

let me make another offer, opt out both of them

take a look at Quested, that's what hans zimmer uses

 

[okok]

if you need to go pro, there're not much left to choose, besides quested, there's another uk stuff, pro Dynaudio (not the consumer ones), very big, model name: dynaudio M4

 

[ahofer]

Genelecs of course because GLM/DSP. I would personally opt for smaller monitors 8341 or 8351 and then add subs as well with the money saved. I have also seen 8361 and let me tell you... THEY ARE MASSIVE. Too big imo for that design.

I've been wondering about this trade off. In particular, is there some high pass threshold at which mounting the stereo pair on the wall becomes a decent choice?

 

[andreasmaaan]

let me make another offer, opt out both of them

take a look at Quested, that's what hans zimmer uses

This company doesn't seem to provide measurements of their products (or even very detailed specifications). And I can't find anything online.

Do you know of any measurements that have been taken of their speakers?

 

[Ilkless]

let me make another offer, opt out both of them

take a look at Quested, that's what hans zimmer uses

Quested is just some cottage industry speakers with a cult of personality that haven't even bothered to give insightful data on their products. The design format of their speakers already betrays antiquated engineering far behind both speakers discussed here, which have clear evidence-based innovations substantiated with detailed data.

 

[TimVG]

Quested measurements available through the S&R monitor special, one of their more expensive 3-ways. I'd rather buy ATCs. And that's saying something.

 

[echopraxia]

@echopraxia What are your thoughts / experience?

I haven’t tried GLM with multiple subs simultaneously, so I can’t comment on that. I can say that when the sub is positioned well, it does a good job tuning the sub for the most part. Two things I had to tune manually are:

1. Positioning of course, since software can’t do that for you. My initial position was bad and required me to boost the sub 10db manually to get reasonable results. Once positioned well, the level was calibrated well by GLM.

2. The crossover default wasn’t good for my room. Looking at the in-room response of the main speakers vs the sub, it was clear that the sub had a null around 80hz that the main speakers did not. So by lowering the crossover to 50hz or so and re-running calibration, I got much better sounding results. Fortunately the 8351B’s are quite capable of such a low crossover even at very loud levels.

3. Unrelated to subs, but I find that GLM’s default of flat in-room response is not ideal (too bright). So every time I calibrate, the first thing I do is go into the “sound character profile” menu and set a -1db/octave target curve from the presets menu. You can tune it further by hand but I find that setting is my preferred one anyway.

 

[Tonygeno]

Does anyone know if GLM 4 work with Mac OS Big Sur (OS 11). I know GLM 3 stopped support at 10.14 which is two years long in the tooth.

And is GLM 4 stable as I think it's still in beta. Thanks.