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Denon AVR-X3700H Vs existing Yamaha AVR

Sprint

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#1
Hi all,

I'm currently using a 7 year old Yamaha RVX-V775 AVR pre-outs for my Genelecs 8340 as LCR and surrounds. Room correction is via GLM. I use 2 SVS Subwoofers SB-12NSD with Bass Management provided by Yamaha. I am not sure if my subwoofers are properly corrected by Yamaha. During the next 4-5 years, I will move to Genelec subs so that I get a clean subwoofer integration.

I am looking for an upgrade in sound. Which of these following options would be a quick win for the overall sound and not so expensive (less than 1500 Euros). Cheap because I expect that as some company in the near future will manufacture a good processor with Balanced XLR outs that is affordable and measures well.

Option 1: Denon X3700H for pre-outs and use Minidsp 2*4HD for subwoofer correction.

Pros for this option: Measured by Amirm. The Preouts are better with amps switched off. However I am not sure if the RCA of Denon with amps mode switched off is equivalent to sound coming from balanced XLR outs.
I am not sure if Minidsp has an clear objective edge over Denon for subwoofer correction.

Cons: No balanced XLR out.

Option 2: IOTAVX AVX1 and use Minidsp 2*4HD for subwoofer correction.

Pros for this option: Balanced XLR outs. Not expensive. cost 799 euros.
Cons: Not measured by Amirm. Small company.

Option 3: Stick to my current AVR Yamaha Rxv-775 and postpone buying AVR. Still buy minidsp to do subwoofer correction.

What do you think makes sense? I really like the warm sound of my Yamaha. Will there be a difference sound quality between Denon and Yamaha?

Appreciate your help!

Just for info! I also had an old post asking an option IOTAVX Vs Yamaha CX-5100 https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/iotavx-avx1-vs-yamaha-cx-5100.15773/
 

peng

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#2
Hi all,

Option 1: Denon X3700H for pre-outs and use Minidsp 2*4HD for subwoofer correction.

Pros for this option: Measured by Amirm. The Preouts are better with amps switched off. However I am not sure if the RCA of Denon with amps mode switched off is equivalent to sound coming from balanced XLR outs.
I am not sure if Minidsp has an clear objective edge over Denon for subwoofer correction.

Cons: No balanced XLR out.
RCA vs XLR: All else being equal, I have not seen evidence from Amir's, or S&V's measurements that XLR output measured meaningfully better. HTHF's did show XLR output often measured marginally better, but so marginal that there is no way it would make any audible difference. You can look at HTHF's reviews on the AV8805, AV8802A, and the MRX-1120 and see the differences for yourself. Amir rarely measured AVRs/AVPs on both RCA/XLR outputs so it will take time to search for available results to compare. Obviously XLR would have an edge minimizing noise over long distance but if you can keep your interconnects shorter than say 3 meters and away from potential interference, it should not be a factor. I used both, really have no preference other than I like the seemingly reassuring "click sound" (depend on the type of connectors used on the gear).

Minidsp edge? : I would say no, in my experience, the 2X4HD offered no advantage at all in terms of performance, especially now that you can use the App and Ratbuddyssey. I am 100% sure the $20 App and the free Ratbuddyssey would get you better performance, at least on paper. My 2X4 HD has been back in the box for a long time, along with the extra interconnects..:( I haven't tried to sell it only because I don't want to be bothered with shipping it outside of my home country. I am sure it is useful for many applications but not with a Denon AVR that comes with XT32, again that's just based on my experience (many many hours of experimenting...)

Another thing, the minidsp's output is limited to 2 V maximum, pretty sure when use with the Denon's pre outs, the overall SINAD would suffer, audibly or not is a different story. Whether that is a "Con" or not, would depend..

Option 2:
IOTAVX AVX1 and use Minidsp 2*4HD for subwoofer correction.

Pros for this option: Balanced XLR outs. Not expensive. cost 799 euros.
Cons: Not measured by Amirm. Small company.
I know nothing about this option, but there is no way I would pay 799 euros for such product without seeing any test results; and regardless, I just can't imagine it could do a better job than Audyssey+App+Ratbuddyssey when with the latter I could get from 20 to 120 Hz within +/- <1.5 dB peak to peak averaged over 6 mic positions or more (I posted some of my graphs before). Other systems, such as Dirac Live may be capable of doing a better job at frequencies above Schroeder's (room transition..), but EQ above Schroeder appears to be controversial in terms of the results, based on experts such as Dr. Toole. I did manage to get good results on paper too, up to 20 kHz using the Audyssey App, but it was very time consuming, and I don't think I heard a difference either way, ymmv..

Option 3:
Stick to my current AVR Yamaha Rxv-775 and postpone buying AVR. Still buy minidsp to do subwoofer correction.
All I can is that I wasted a lot of time, and some money obviously when I tried to use it. All it did for me was the added heat, cluttering my rack with more wires..., no audible benefits, no better FR on paper either.:D In my opinion/experience, you can try compare a few customized target curves, if there are within a couple dB here and there in the 15 to 200 Hz range, you won't be able to tell the differences there are there on paper.

However, if you stick with the RX-V775, then the minidsp 2XHD would probably help, assuming it's YPAO is not as effective as Audyssey XT32.

What do you think makes sense? I really like the warm sound of my Yamaha. Will there be a difference sound quality between Denon and Yamaha?
I think the warm sound thing is not real, but could be real in people's mind, though the realness will disappear in a DBT. By the way, my impression is that in the world of AVRs/AVPs, it seems that more people claimed Marantz has a warmer sound than Denon's (imo that defies logic too) and I rarely read anything about Yamaha's AVR sounded warm. I can tell you there will not be a difference between Denon and Yamaha's comparable models, but only if you compare them in pure direct mode with no dsp and/or EQ involved and it would have to be a properly conducted blind tests. If you know which one you are listening to, then all bets are off.
 
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Sprint

Sprint

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Thread Starter #3
@peng Thanks a lot for sharing your valuable experience and thoughts. Excellent to learn from you. From what I got is that Denon X3700H should be more than enough to drive my Genelecs. I am running a XLR cable around 7 meters for the surrounds and only near the AVR, I have a XLR female - RCA male adapter that goes into the AVR pre-outs. With this set up, I have not experienced with interference issues.

BTW what is HTHF?

In conclusion, do you think that the Denon with its pre-out, audessey subwoofer management/integration should be better than my existing Yamaha AVR and worth the upgrade?

Also, is X4700 better or 3700 should be enough?
 
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#4
Audyssey, with the two apps mentioned, is so very useful. You'll be able to set your sub up very well indeed, focusing on just those lower frequencies and allowing your Genelecs do their own room correction.

Since the app allows for multiple room correction settings/files, you could also have some fun comparing the full range room correction from Audyssey with the Genelecs.
 
OP
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Sprint

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@Matt S: Thanks! How is Denon x3700H for 2 channel music especially with respect to sub integration and correction? Are the DACs good for 2 channel music as well? As someone in this forum was not happy with x3700H for 2 channel music compared to a Topping DAC. But it could be play of the mind instead of going by measurements.
 
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#6
I don't have the 3700h, I have a different AVR with Audyssey and was commenting from that standpoint.

The Topping no doubt measures better than the Denon amp but, whether that's audible or not is likely difficult to prove. It's nice knowing you have the cleanest possible source though, right?

However, I feel that room correction makes far more of an audible difference. You'll know this already as you have your Genelecs. In my setup the sub integrates well with my speakers.

The Denon is one of the best in terms of measurements. Couple that with room correction and you're onto a good thing I reckon.
 
OP
Sprint

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@Matt S: Thanks! I completely agree. The GLM in Genelecs blew me off in my not so good treated living room. Are you using active speakers as well. In the future, I will shift to Genelec subs to get the best measured sub integration. In your AVR with Audyssey, how is the sub integrated for 2 channel music. What is the cross over settings to sub 80HZ? Is it the same for movies and music?
 
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I too am using active speakers (Adam Audio). The crossover is set at 80hz. For both music and movies. All settings handled by Audyssey and some tinkering with the app.

My room isn't ideal either, too many hard surfaces etc. Moving next year and hoping to have a "softer" listening area!!

BTW, I heard some amazing Genelec speakers in a record store not so long ago. The 8260's. Fabulous sound. Not sure my other half would allow them in our lounge but they were pretty amazing.
 
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@Matt S : Which Adam? I listened to an Adam S3V & S5V in Munich Hifi. Amazing. I was considering S3V for LR and S3H for Center and S2V for surrounds. However due to open drivers (have visitors with children always), color and no SOTA room correction from ADAM made me to opt for Genelecs. Also, I wanted 3 identical speakers for fronts and S3H was a bit odd. I would have gone for 8350 but was not available in white and so had to live with 8340.

Attached is my living room set up. The coffee table is new from yesterday shopping. Am not sure if it will have a sonic impact. But since it has wheels I can move it to a corner. At this point of time, I am hearing any difference in SQ. At the max, may cover it with a blanket during listening sessions.
 

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@Matt S : Which Adam? I listened to an Adam S3V & S5V in Munich Hifi. Amazing. I was considering S3V for LR and S3H for Center and S2V for surrounds. However due to open drivers (have visitors with children always), color and no SOTA room correction from ADAM made me to opt for Genelecs. Also, I wanted 3 identical speakers for fronts and S3H was a bit odd. I would have gone for 8350 but was not available in white and so had to live with 8340.

Attached is my living room set up. The coffee table is new from yesterday shopping. Am not sure if it will have a sonic impact. But since it has wheels I can move it to a corner. At this point of time, I am hearing any difference in SQ. At the max, may cover it with a blanket during listening sessions.

Myself and brother have some Adam Audio Artist 6's. I have a Kef sub backing them up. They were an attempt by Adam to get in to the home audio market. Got some great reviews but they never followed with any others. A shame - as we think they're great.

I like the layout of your lounge. Looks very cool indeed. The speakers work in that space. Nice.
 

peng

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#11
Hometheaterhifi.com

I mentioned them because they typically measured THD+N using both XLR and RCA outputs when both are available, such as Marantz AV8805.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/processors/marantz-av8805-processor-review/

In conclusion, do you think that the Denon with its pre-out, audessey subwoofer management/integration should be better than my existing Yamaha AVR and worth the upgrade?
I believe Audyssey XT32, if used with the Editor App, can do a better job than Yamaha's YPAO, but in pure direct I would say they are practically equal. Denon does seem to have an edge in terms of capable of having lower THD+N at higher output voltage, so it is better for use with external power amps in general. Also, their mid range models is 7.1.4 capable, whereas Yamaha's are limited to 9 channel processing, except for the flag ship models.

Also, is X4700 better or 3700 should be enough?
If the 3700 has all the features you need, it may be a better value than the 4700. The 4700 has a larger power supply but it would make little difference in practice. It also has Auro3D that the 3700 cannot do, if that's important to you.
 
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