HIDIZS S8 USB-C Headphone Adapter Review

[Zarniwoop]

Soundstage is how big around your head the notes can be casted by the transducers.

Imaging is the ability to pinpoint the precise location of each note within the soundstage and how definite the note sounds, i.e, how 'not hazy/distorted' it sounds within the stage.

Can you show me some graphs that measure these?

 

[seamon]

Can you show me some graphs that measure these?

Is it possible to measure soundstage with the current equipment we have?

 

[seamon]

Those are subjective perceptions that are highly dependent on the transducers and perhaps DSP. The amp and DAC don't really contribute to that the way they operate.

Are you implying all modern DACs and AMPs have the exact same soundstage and Imaging?

 

[Zarniwoop]

Is it possible to measure soundstage with the current equipment we have?

Maybe we have to rely on voodoo for the answer to that?

But seriously... "how big around your head the notes can be casted by the transducers". What does that mean? You can hear the sound outside your head? You can feel parts of your head vibrate? How about iem's?

And "the ability to pinpoint the precise location of each note within the soundstage and how definite the note sounds, i.e, how 'not hazy/distorted' it sounds within the stage" sounds like a matter of transparency, low distortion and crosstalk, all of which are measured as excellent with this device.

 

[seamon]

Maybe we have to rely on voodoo for the answer to that?

But seriously... "how big around your head the notes can be casted by the transducers". What does that mean? You can hear the sound outside your head? You can feel parts of your head vibrate? How about iem's?

And "the ability to pinpoint the precise location of each note within the soundstage and how definite the note sounds, i.e, how 'not hazy/distorted' it sounds within the stage" sounds like a matter of transparency, low distortion and crosstalk, all of which are measured as excellent with this device.

I am just saying that we don't yet have the correct instrument/procedure to measure soundstage in a way that's meaningful to everyone.

IEMs have a smaller stage than headphones but you can still roughly imagine the Soundstage size around your head.

If those are excellent with this device then there must something else(not yet measured) that makes the Imaging not as good as the E1DA?

It's easy to dismiss subjective impressions as 'Voodoo' but is the current level of measurements we have access to all there is to sound?

 

[ZolaIII]

Are you implying all modern DACs and AMPs have the exact same soundstage and Imaging?

Are the mids a little forward sort of on E1DA?

 

[ayane]

Are you implying all modern DACs and AMPs have the exact same soundstage and Imaging?

Yes, I am, provided that the amplifier and DAC do not have egregious design problems. As an aside, I've mentioned this already a few posts ago, but the term "imaging" means something very specific in digital audio, different from the meaning you're trying to convey. I recommend using a different word or phrase to avoid confusion, like "perceptual imaging" for example.

It's easy to dismiss subjective impressions as 'Voodoo' but is the current level of measurements we have access to all there is to sound?

Is it possible to measure soundstage with the current equipment we have?

Yes, it is, and I'll explain why. You've boldly said earlier that I'm not familiar with "audiophile" equipment, but from your way of thinking, I feel that you lack some important information regarding audio. I'll admit that I don't know everything about audio electronics, but I do record and produce music myself so I have some familiarity.

I am just saying that we don't yet have the correct instrument/procedure to measure soundstage in a way that's meaningful to everyone.

IEMs have a smaller stage than headphones but you can still roughly imagine the Soundstage size around your head.

If those are excellent with this device then there must something else(not yet measured) that makes the Imaging not as good as the E1DA?

A lot of these assertions are false, and it is frustrating because people keep saying that without any evidence. The concept of soundstage and other perceptual phenomena are results of psychoacoustics, meaning that the phenomenon happens at the ears - in other words, the transducers and source material contribute to this effect and not the electronics in between the source material, provided that the electronics in between do not alter the signal in egregious ways. We know from the limits of human hearing that the measurable differences between most gear are still far beyond what we can perceive at our ears, and even some of the worse measuring DACs can pass as transparent when properly level-matched and impedance-matched.

The phenomenon of soundstage requires a thorough understanding of DSP to explain and measure correctly, and yes, it is possible to make an IEM sound as open as a pair of speakers if DSP is implemented properly. This specifically was the topic of my master's thesis in computational mathematics, in designing real-time DSP to correct a transducer's impulse response to match the impulse response of the human auditory system.

We perceive cues like space and openness based on the amplitude and phase differences between different frequencies as well as amplitude and phase differences between the two ears. If the following conditions are met, then the DAC and amp will not be contributing to this:

• The DAC has a flat frequency response from 20 Hz to 20 kHz to within 0.5 dB
• The DAC has a linear phase response
• The amplifier doesn't color the output between 20 Hz to 20 kHz more than 0.5 dB after accounting for output impedance
• The total system THD+N is under -100 dB
• The total system crosstalk between left and right channels is under -100 dB

Meeting these conditions will ensure that the DAC and amp are not introducing nonlinearities, phase and timing errors, and other distortions that are anywhere near the audio band. Surprise, most well-designed equipment will meet or exceed these conditions. and therefore will have absolutely no audible differences if level matched. The only criteria that consumer equipment tends to have trouble with are points 2 and 3, because DACs can use non-linear phase digital filters, and more commonly, the output impedance of the amplifier feeding the transducers can be too high, introducing audible distortions to the sound. I recommend reading this article about damping factor by John Siau or this article on the same topic by nwavguy to understand this phenomenon better at a high level.

That leaves out the transducer and the source material. Different transducers have very different impulse responses, which is their sound "signature", if you will. The impulse response of the transducer can be altered with DSP at the software level, by using any number of tricks - the most well-known one being a parametric equalizer. Another trick, called impulse response convolution, can arbitrarily alter the impulse response of the output with almost any effect imaginable, and can make an IEM sound spacious like speakers in a room or can make big headphones sound like IEMs. In fact, it is easier to do with IEMs because most of the acoustic intricacies of the external human auditory system are bypassed, leaving just the acoustics of the middle and inner ear. If a person's HRTF (head-related transfer function) is measured and fed to an impulse response convolver at the DSP level, it will dramatically alter the sound coming out of the transducer, provided the transducer is fairly competent. Source material can also be mastered with these same effects (like reverb) where phase and amplitude shifts are deliberately introduced in order to make the music sound more spacious.

All of this aside, most commonly, perceived difference between gear happen because equipment is not level matched, and/or the output impedance of the amplifier colors the sound output of the transducer. I recommend level matching the E1DA and S8, feeding them to a well-designed amplifier with low output impedance like your RME ADI-2 DAC, and then ABX-ing them that way. If done right, I am willing to bet that you will not hear a difference.

 

[seamon]

Yes, I am, provided that the amplifier and DAC do not have egregious design problems. As an aside, I've mentioned this already a few posts ago, but the term "imaging" means something very specific in digital audio, different from the meaning you're trying to convey. I recommend using a different word or phrase to avoid confusion, like "perceptual imaging" for example.



Yes, it is, and I'll explain why. You've boldly said earlier that I'm not familiar with "audiophile" equipment, but from your way of thinking, I feel that you lack some important information regarding audio. I'll admit that I don't know everything about audio electronics, but I do record and produce music myself so I have some familiarity.


A lot of these assertions are false, and it is frustrating because people keep saying that without any evidence. The concept of soundstage and other perceptual phenomena are results of psychoacoustics, meaning that the phenomenon happens at the ears - in other words, the transducers and source material contribute to this effect and not the electronics in between the source material, provided that the electronics in between do not alter the signal in egregious ways. We know from the limits of human hearing that the measurable differences between most gear are still far beyond what we can perceive at our ears, and even some of the worse measuring DACs can pass as transparent when properly level-matched and impedance-matched.

The phenomenon of soundstage requires a thorough understanding of DSP to explain and measure correctly, and yes, it is possible to make an IEM sound as open as a pair of speakers if DSP is implemented properly. This specifically was the topic of my master's thesis in computational mathematics, in designing real-time DSP to correct a transducer's impulse response to match the impulse response of the human auditory system.

We perceive cues like space and openness based on the amplitude and phase differences between different frequencies as well as amplitude and phase differences between the two ears. If the following conditions are met, then the DAC and amp will not be contributing to this:

• The DAC has a flat frequency response from 20 Hz to 20 kHz to within 0.5 dB
• The DAC has a linear phase response
• The amplifier doesn't color the output between 20 Hz to 20 kHz more than 0.5 dB after accounting for output impedance
• The total system THD+N is under -100 dB
• The total system crosstalk between left and right channels is under -100 dB

Meeting these conditions will ensure that the DAC and amp are not introducing nonlinearities, phase and timing errors, and other distortions that are anywhere near the audio band. Surprise, most well-designed equipment will meet or exceed these conditions. and therefore will have absolutely no audible differences if level matched. The only criteria that consumer equipment tends to have trouble with are points 2 and 3, because DACs can use non-linear phase digital filters, and more commonly, the output impedance of the amplifier feeding the transducers can be too high, introducing audible distortions to the sound. I recommend reading this article about damping factor by John Siau or this article on the same topic by nwavguy to understand this phenomenon better at a high level.

That leaves out the transducer and the source material. Different transducers have very different impulse responses, which is their sound "signature", if you will. The impulse response of the transducer can be altered with DSP at the software level, by using any number of tricks - the most well-known one being a parametric equalizer. Another trick, called impulse response convolution, can arbitrarily alter the impulse response of the output with almost any effect imaginable, and can make an IEM sound spacious like speakers in a room or can make big headphones sound like IEMs. In fact, it is easier to do with IEMs because most of the acoustic intricacies of the external human auditory system are bypassed, leaving just the acoustics of the middle and inner ear. If a person's HRTF (head-related transfer function) is measured and fed to an impulse response convolver at the DSP level, it will dramatically alter the sound coming out of the transducer, provided the transducer is fairly competent. Source material can also be mastered with these same effects (like reverb) where phase and amplitude shifts are deliberately introduced in order to make the music sound more spacious.

All of this aside, most commonly, perceived difference between gear happen because equipment is not level matched, and/or the output impedance of the amplifier colors the sound output of the transducer. I recommend level matching the E1DA and S8, feeding them to a well-designed amplifier with low output impedance like your RME ADI-2 DAC, and then ABX-ing them that way. If done right, I am willing to bet that you will not hear a difference.

I admit I don't know much about audio equipment design and frankly don't care to educate myself about it because I don't really have the time.

What I do care about is the sound I hear after everything and for me every single DAC has sounded different in one way or another.
Now back to the original point, if you believe that all DACs sound same then I'm afraid we can't reach a common ground as it just goes against my observation. You won't be able to change my view and I doubt I will ever be able to change yours so let's call it a day and I will continue my search for a better portable DAC.

 

[ZolaIII]

@ayane it's not that simple. You have DAC's which measure great but are very prone in picking up noise from EMI and power supply. This does influence output manifesting in a low end region and you cannot really say that the thing is broken as it still measures good. ESS are especially prone to this but neither the CS43131 is great. That's why I claim Sonata HD Pro is the best portable design so far because it has a rather good rejection rate. We can argue how this is tied to proper design decisions but so far manufacturers mostly play deff when told they need to apply better shielding. Stereo cross talk certainly improves what he likes to call imaging. I deliberately asked about mids! As I know how ESS behaves without proper shilling and how to fix it if you can disassemble it. The rest is just difference in terminology.

 

[seamon]

Are the mids a little forward sort of on E1DA?

E1DA midrange is a little forward I suppose but not too much. It's def not warm, overall a bright sound signature.

I ordered a Lotoo Paw S1, hoping it's good

 

[ayane]

f you believe that all DACs sound same then I'm afraid we can't reach a common ground as it just goes against my observation. You won't be able to change my view and I doubt I will ever be able to change yours so let's call it a day and I will continue my search for a better portable DAC.

My entire post is about why DACs can sound different, so I don't know why you keep strawmanning that I think all DACs sound the same. I even suggested ways to mitigate the issue without buying new equipment. If you don't want to educate yourself, that is fine, but your explanations won't hold any merit.

 

[ZolaIII]

E1DA midrange is a little forward I suppose but not too much. It's def not warm, overall a bright sound signature.

I ordered a Lotoo Paw S1, hoping it's good

Yes it's lack of shilling that caose ESS designs to sound like that (fast, bright with a bit forward elevated mids). It should actually sound as Sonata HD Pro, that's transparent. I solved that kind of behaviour on good ESS design by applying a 2~3 mm layer of graphite & a little of aluminium foil but it whose very easy to access design. OK then, mystery solved without harsh words or anything.

 

[seamon]

My entire post is about why DACs can sound different, so I don't know why you keep strawmanning that I think all DACs sound the same. I even suggested ways to mitigate the issue without buying new equipment. If you don't want to educate yourself, that is fine, but your explanations won't hold any merit.

Fair enough. I suppose this is just the wrong forum to express my thoughts. I was over-hyped by the rank of this little DAC and was angry that it sounds like trash on my system so I guess I wanted to vent a little.

 

[seamon]

Yes it's lack of shilling that caose ESS designs to sound like that (fast, bright with a bit forward elevated mids). It should actually sound as Sonata HD Pro, that's transparent. I solved that kind of behaviour on good ESS design by applying a 2~3 mm layer of graphite & a little of aluminium foil but it whose very easy to access design. OK then, mystery solved without harsh words or anything.

Can you give more details? A proper guide and pictures will be helpful

 

[typericey]

Darn I'm all out of popcorn.

 

[ZolaIII]

Can you give more details? A proper guide and pictures will be helpful

But why? Then it would sound just like a Sonata. Thing is if you like fow it sound leave it as it is.
I know what you talk about & it's all true. Through is all DAC's if implemented good should sound the same. I moded Sonata iDSD which is flask a like design and really easy to disassemble and access. Basically I put a layer of electrical isolation tape & applied to it a couple of layers of polish and graphite powder over IC's in the end i put a peace of aluminium folio over it and assembled it back together. That's the cheap way. More expensive & proper would be using transformer varnish and graphite powder or sheets.

It's also trouth that such a behavior of the DAC subjectively makes you feel its more reviling but through is other way around. That may sound disappointing to you but that's how things are.

Best regards.

 

[Veri]

Are you implying all modern DACs and AMPs have the exact same soundstage and Imaging?

Most people here are really convinced that yes, in a proper test all normal/modern/non-thrash DACs should sound indentical.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...le-thinking-a-dac-has-a-sound-signature.9245/

In audiophile type reviews the tests are sighted and a far cry from a proper controlled/repeatable test. I could do that and write some new impressions every day: "wow now that it is broken in, it sounds way more open!" that kind of stuff. It holds very little value since it's super obvious it is subjective rambling that will change day to day. I mean if you are happy with your equipment be happy! But the kind of audiophile circle-jerking where people share these "mid range sounds weird" (FR IS TOTALLY FLAT) "sound stage is much better" (zero evidence of that) kind of thoughts is not encouraged around ASR, that is more head-fi/audiophilestyle kind of talk lol. Because you can't prove it at all, and when volume matching differences tend to vanish...

 

[Zarniwoop]

I could do that and write some new impressions every day: "wow now that it is broken in, it sounds way more open!" that kind of stuff.

I take it that the idea of "burn in" has been roundly disproved here, or elsewhere?

 

[Veri]

I take it that the idea of "burn in" has been roundly disproved here, or elsewhere?

Headphone burn in has been attributed to the earpads settling in which can have a pretty big impact on perceived sound. Some chips like ESS or resistor ladder DACs perform a little better once they warm up, but even then the measured difference is not that large. The "break in" of capacitors or other parts have also never been proven to change anything. So yes I would say any drastic "burn in" changes are likely imagined.

 

[nyj585]

I'm having issues with my Samsung S20+. On a fresh restart, I can usually plug it in and get audio playing fine. Then, if I let it sit too long, it gets no audio. If I unplug and replug, I can similar issues. Also got one time where it was playing, but sounded very grainy and odd. It also reboots occasionally if I unplug and replug.

I turned on USB debugging mode, but I'm still having issues. Anyone else have a fix? I want to use HiBy and UAPP, but I use apple music for my music library. Will those apps sync the files from Apple Music or no? Is there a firmware update or something that can help with this?