No, this AVR is well above average for AVR’s.
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Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)
- Thread starter amirm
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Of course you can turn the volume down.
200 WPC is relevant for people who use an AVR such as the X3500H that does not have the ability to disconnect any internal amp channels. So based on ASR measurements, the AVR-X3500H pre out would go crazy (Amir's high bar only, high=higher than other reviewer's such as AH, HTHF, S&V just to name a few..).
Now take a look of some facts below:
- many external power amps have gain around 29 dB, some goes as high as 32 dB, but the likes of Outlaw, Anthem, Monolith, ATI, NAD, Emo have gains between 28 and 29 dB.
- the AVR-X3500H, as measured by ASR, has SINAD in the mid 90's, that is about 0.0017% THD+N at 1.2 V and based on Amir's comment, it is reasonable to assume at 1.4 V, before it starts to go crazy pass 1.5 V, SINAD would remain in the 90's.
- At 1.4 V, a power amp with gain = 29 dB will be driven to almost 200 W.
Some based on the above listed facts, if one pairs the AVR-X3500H the likes of the Monolith 200 W amp, one would be able to drive such amp very close to its rated output with SINAD not lower than 90 dB, that is 0.003%, not SOTA, but as good or better than its much higher end cousin the AV7705 that is a dedicated preamp/processor.
No problem to pair it with a 400 W amp either, just that one would have to expect at volume 0, SINAD will drop to about 73 dB, that is about 0.02%.
Again, you are right, just turn the volume down if one can hear THD+N as low as 0.1% (I doubt it would be higher than that even at volume 0) at the power amp output.
Not necessarily. I paid £699/$862 for an IOTAVX 7.1 4K AVP (pic below). It is light on features - which I wanted, but it has all the basics - including center channel sound, basic room correction DSP, and XLR output. It works perfectly for me, which is good, because it cost a lot to ship it here to the mountains of Western Panama from the UK via Miami, USA, and would not be easy to get service or resell it. It wasn't festooned with "HiRes Audio" and other stickers when I got it, which is also good, because I like the "as simple as possible, but no simpler" approach. I get up-mixed center channel sound that I can defeat when it affects really good stereo recordings by simply turning off my center channel amplifier with its front switch. I always seem to be a bit off the mainstream audio consumer track, but yet again in a long lifetime in the audio hobby, managed to assemble a system that suits me perfectly considering my room, budget and fairly wide-ranging taste in music. I think this is as close to a competent design with a minimalist approach that one can find in the AVP arena.
The Denon looks good, but would be waaaay overkill for me. However, based on this ASR review and thread, I would not hesitate to recommend it highly for non-audiophile/videophile friends looking for a modern, good-performing "all-in-one" AVR and could afford it.
Unfortunately, for many retired expats like me living in a small rental house or apartment on an even more limited pension then mine, anything more than a Smart TV with an Amazon Firestick is out of reach. Most of my friends and acquaintances don't even have sound bars, much less discrete external speakers and subwoofers for their TV's. However, a couple of well-heeled expat retirees whom I know actually have full-on dedicated home theater rooms with videophile multichannel sound.
At this time in the midst of the global Covid-19 pandemic, it is a miracle that we have high-speed internet and high-res streaming video from around the world even in remote corners of developing nations like Panama. Video via the internet is our "window to the world". Life here in Boquete during the restrictions of a pandemic would be quite different without it.
I don't fully understand that logic.
If power is limited in ECO mode, pre-outs shouldn't suffer any degradation. Specially if not using any speaker attached to the AVR, just the pre-outs feeding an external power amp.
Bear123
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@amirm
Can we start using a meaningful volume nomenclature i.e. reference level instead of these random meaningless numbers? Instead of volume 37 or 86 or 74, all of which is rather meaningless, how about we use the reference level standard that has meaning and is more easily related to how people use the product. We know reference level is at MV of 0. We know how loud we generally listen relative to reference level, whether it is -20, -15, -10, etc. This also provides meaningful SPL information since the SPL levels required at reference level are precise, known quantities. Saying some random volume number provides no meaningful context. If we are clipping pre-outs at "86" or whatever random number, this holds no meaning. But if we know this is 6 dB ABOVE reference, a volume that no one will ever use in real life, ever, then we know this is a meaningless measurement in real life. If on the other hand, we know that we get 1.5 volts from pre-outs at 0 MV, and that is as loud or louder than we will ever listen, well now we have meaningful information. How much voltage to expect at our loudest realistic volume level. And therefore which external amp to consider that can be fully powered with the usable voltage.
Also, every manufacturer may have their own random meaningless volume number if not using reference level, so very hard to compare from brand to brand.
Can we start using a meaningful volume nomenclature i.e. reference level instead of these random meaningless numbers? Instead of volume 37 or 86 or 74, all of which is rather meaningless, how about we use the reference level standard that has meaning and is more easily related to how people use the product. We know reference level is at MV of 0. We know how loud we generally listen relative to reference level, whether it is -20, -15, -10, etc. This also provides meaningful SPL information since the SPL levels required at reference level are precise, known quantities. Saying some random volume number provides no meaningful context. If we are clipping pre-outs at "86" or whatever random number, this holds no meaning. But if we know this is 6 dB ABOVE reference, a volume that no one will ever use in real life, ever, then we know this is a meaningless measurement in real life. If on the other hand, we know that we get 1.5 volts from pre-outs at 0 MV, and that is as loud or louder than we will ever listen, well now we have meaningful information. How much voltage to expect at our loudest realistic volume level. And therefore which external amp to consider that can be fully powered with the usable voltage.
Also, every manufacturer may have their own random meaningless volume number if not using reference level, so very hard to compare from brand to brand.
Bear123
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With Eco mode engaged on my Denon X3300, massive clipping and distortion occurs much earlier than with Eco mod off. Far below the clean power output capability of the AVR in normal mode. So it doesn't just limit power, but it greatly reduces the level at which massive clipping and distortion occurs. As in 20 watts or so. Perhaps using it in Auto mode would be ok as I *think* eco mode turns off above a certain volume level in Auto. I would personally want to test to be sure though before I used it.
demoncamber
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I'm still learning how to pair the proper amp to an AVR, so these are my amp specs, will this be fine for the x4700?:
Specifications
DESIGN 5-ch THX Ultra2 Amplifier
POWER OUPUT 8 200 watts/ch into 8 ohms at less than 0.03% THD (20Hz-20kHz - 3 channels driven)
POWER OUTPUT 4 300 watts/ch into 4 ohms at less than 0.05% THD
FREQUENCY RESPONSE 20Hz-20kHz +0/-0.1dB10Hz-100kHz +0/-0.5dB
TIM/DIM DISTORTION0.00%
S/N RATIO106dB A-weighted
DAMPING FACTOR 500 (8 ohms - 50Hz)
INPUT SENSITIVITY100mV-1W / 1.42V-200W
INPUT IMPEDANCE20k ohms
Bear123
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If the above specs indicate that full rated power is achieved with 1.42 volts, then yes, that amp will be a great match for the X4700. Even without disconnecting the internal amps, you will get a very clean signal from the pre-outs that is well below clipping. Should sound as good as any other product regardless of cost since noise/distortoin etc will be well below the realistic threshold of hearing in real life.
The AVR850 caught my curiosity when I saw Amir's comments such as:
"Strangely, the volume control would max out not letting me get it up to nominal 2 volts I like to see from RCA preamp output. By chance I also tested the unit with the speakers set to small, and subwoofer on. None of this should matter as the test tone is at 1 kHz. But it made a huge difference: "
"If I now turn on the side, and surround speakers, performance increases even more!"
"One clue is that the moment you set the speakers to small, you can then keep increasing the volume from pre-out well past 2 volts even:"
"Tons of odd behavior is observed such as setting speakers to small and performance of a DAC improving. It seems ever setup change modifies the noise and distortion level of the product likely to pipelines that are not designed to any standard of quality. No wonder we get nearly useless specifications with no statement of conditions under which they were gathered: "
So I think the AVR850 was in fact "affected" similarly, but the results should still be valid, without having to re-test, if we ignore those measured with speakers set to "large" and/or with some speakers not "On".
For some reason Amir figured out settings have something to do with the results when he was measuring the Arcam but did not when measuring the Denon, may be he did the Denon before coffee.
Of course you can turn the volume down.
200 WPC is relevant for people who use an AVR such as the X3500H that does not have the ability to disconnect any internal amp channels. So based on ASR measurements, the AVR-X3500H pre out would go crazy (Amir's high bar only, high=higher than other reviewer's such as AH, HTHF, S&V just to name a few..).
Now take a look of some facts below:
- many external power amps have gain around 29 dB, some goes as high as 32 dB, but the likes of Outlaw, Anthem, Monolith, ATI, NAD, Emo have gains between 28 and 29 dB.
- the AVR-X3500H, as measured by ASR, has SINAD in the mid 90's, that is about 0.0017% THD+N at 1.2 V and based on Amir's comment, it is reasonable to assume at 1.4 V, before it starts to go crazy pass 1.5 V, SINAD would remain in the 90's.
- At 1.4 V, a power amp with gain = 29 dB will be driven to almost 200 W.
Some based on the above listed facts, if one pairs the AVR-X3500H the likes of the Monolith 200 W amp, one would be able to drive such amp very close to its rated output with SINAD not lower than 90 dB, that is 0.003%, not SOTA, but as good or better than its much higher end cousin the AV7705 that is a dedicated preamp/processor.
No problem to pair it with a 400 W amp either, just that one would have to expect at volume 0, SINAD will drop to about 73 dB, that is about 0.02%.
Again, you are right, just turn the volume down if one can hear THD+N as low as 0.1% (I doubt it would be higher than that even at volume 0) at the power amp output.
Thank you for your elaborate response. Sadly, I still don't quite understand the problem
It's funny that you mention the X3500H because that is the one that I own right now. I am considering replacing it with the X4700H (because full HDMI 2.1 support and more channels). I have also ordered NC252MP based amplifiers for the LCR-channels. In a blind listening test between an NC122MP amplifier (connected to the Denon's pre-amp) and the X3500H I noticed that the Hypex amp sounded much better than the Denon's internal amplifier. But I wanted to have a bit more power (future proofing) so I ordered the NC252MP instead.
Your comment now got me worried that the NC252MP (2x250W, balanced input, 25.5dB gain) was a bad choice because without pre-amp mode it would drive the Denon's internal amps into clipping. Would the NC122MP with less rated power be a better choice after all?
Here is what I don't get:
The output voltage of the Denon's pre-amp is determined by the Denon's volume settings, right? Lower volume -> lower voltage.
So if I set the Denon to a volume setting where I am below 1.4V then no clipping should occur, no matter what amplifier I connect to the Denon's pre-amp, right?
And if I can reach more than my preferred listening level with that setting, I should be golden?
The amp will not reach its maximum rated power output but I don't really care about that. I don't need all the 250 Watts that the amplifier provides. I am only listening in a small room.
Maybe there are some fundamentals about pre-amps and power amplifiers that I don't understand. Maybe that's why I am so confused right now.
That is true but only apply the channels with the power amp disconnected because the SR6014/AVR-X3600H do not have preamp mode.
So it you disconnect the front left and right and set ECO to "On", the internal amps will all clip sooner, due to the lowered rail voltage (logical right?).
Now consider the following that can happen if you have the SR6014:
1) The front left and right pre-outs can be disconnected if you assign them to "pre out"
2) The other 7 channels will remain connected to the internal power amp regardless of whether you have speakers connected.
3) If ECO is on, the rail voltage is lower, so all of the internal amps will clip sooner, that is, it doesn't help in terms of clipping, only worse.
The preout signal degradation at higher output voltage pass the 1.4/1.5 V has been found (by both Gene/AH (earlier/first I assume) and Amir/ASR, later, but independently I assume) that it was due to the internal power amp clipping and the resulting higher distortions somehow got fed back to the preamp side. So, refer to 3) above, preout signal degradation will happen at even lower output voltage because the internal power amp will clip at a lower output voltage when ECO is on. Again, it won't affect the left/right channel pre out under condition 1) above, but it will affect the other channels.
With the X3700H/X4700H, you can in fact benefit from ECO on if you use them as prepro and use preamp mode that is only available on these 2020 models. I hope this is now clear.
I think the SINAD of the AVR850 would likely still improve if it was tested with stereo HDMI output but you are right the AVR850 results are likely much less affected than the AV40. Those small speaker settings mean it is applying crossovers which will likely engage the DSP.
The AV40 and AVR10 results are likely not comparable with any other results as they were tested differently and likely measure quite a bit worse because of it. IMHO they should be removed from the comparison charts and a suitable note added at the start of each review.
What about someone getting an AVR for 2.1 (to add a subwoofer)? Sounds reasonable to me and this issue might still apply to that use case.
And what about the person who buys it 7 to 10 years from now for that purpose. I would imagine Denon probably doesn't care about anything but the initial sale. But there are a lot of people buying used AVRs for two channel use.
I'm quite late to this 'party', would you mind telling us what was the happy ending? Did Denon go out of the AVR business? Or slashed prices by 50%?
There, fixed that for you.
Ok, ok I am kidding. The (only!) two amps that were tested are actually ~$50 good.
I really, really, really want to see that answer too!
The "new" measurements show that the x4700 AVR gives us the same approx 70dB SINAD. Last time I checked, that was (still) the main usecase for like 99,99% of customers. And by 2020 standards I am quite sure that the name for that 'performance' is (still) 'trash'.
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I am confused, what exactly did you not get? Everything you said here confirm what I said in my post so we perfectly agreed on everything.
On a separate note, I do not believe those Ncore amps would sound much better if they both (Ncore and the Denon's internal amps) are used well below their output limits and they seemed to be the case from what I can gather in your post. Are you sure you did a real apple to apple AB comparison, such as:
- level matched
- Same source media, player, music for the comparison listening session
- Same speakers, same seating positions
- Switching between the two quickly, like within a few seconds
- Done without know which amp was used
- Someone else did the switching for you
As Dr. Toole said in one of his Youtube video when he was talking about comparing speakers, he said if you know which one is playing...I don't care...what you think...
we all know most people find it easier to notice the difference in sound quality between different speakers so for sure that same point Dr. Toole made would apply to comparing the AVR-X3500H's internal amp with the NCore122 that is actually less powerful.
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You are golden with that amp, even if you don't use pre-amp mode, but you should use it regardless. That amp has good sensitivity, like voltage gain of about 29 dB, and high enough input impedance for just about any well measured/spec'ed AVRs. Distortions, at 0.05% isn't great but most likely would measure much better on the bench.
I am confused, what exactly did you not get? Everything you said here confirm what I said in my post so we perfectly agreed on everything.
On a separate note, I do not believe those Ncore amps would sound much better if they both (Ncore and the Denon's internal amps) are used well below their output limits and they seemed to be the case from what I can gather in your post. Are you sure you did a real apple to apple AB comparison, such as:
- level matched
- Same source media, player, music for the comparison listening session
- Same speakers, same seating positions
- Switching between the two quickly, like within a few seconds
- Done without know which amp was used
- Someone else did the switching for you
As Dr. Toole said in one of his Youtube video when he was talking about comparing speakers, he said if you know which one is playing...I don't care...what you think...
we all know most people find it easier to notice the difference in sound quality between different speakers so for sure that same would apply to comparing the AVR-X3500H's internal amp with the NCore122 that is actually less powerful.
Then maybe I was confused because I thought we were disagreeing
I'm glad we don't, so thank you for your elaborate response again I tried to do the AB-test as "apples to apples" as I could make it with my limited resources. I have written about it in this forum (see here). It felt to me like there wasn't a lot of interest so I didn't follow up on it anymore. Level matching was indeed problematic (as pointed out in the other thread) but since there should have been no bias towards one amp being louder I still think it should be okay.
Maybe I'll repeat the experiment with better level matching once the NCore250 arrives.
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think this is correct. The 82-84 SINAD is the 5w amp measurement, not the DAC measurement. The DAC measurement is 96 for the X3500 with the amps connected. There are 2 separate charts... one for amp measurements and one for DAC measurements.
I would like to thank Amirm and Audioscience for their intellectual integrity in general and I am really happy to see that Denon acted with the same intellectual integrity to find the reason which had led to such a degradation of performances due to a defective downmix which is a case much more often encountered than some people think. Well done !
I have a question: the AVR-X 3600 H has been measured the same way and you haven't had any bad results. What do you think this is about?
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PS. I have a Denon AVR-X 3600 H connected to two large Divatech MC 210 Monitoring speakers which were models from the old professional division of Focal: magnificent listening, with Audyssey XT 32 corrected with the application for tablet or mobile phone. The result is magnificent on all levels: timbres, transparency, bandwidth, dynamics. Source: Mac Mini, with Audirvana sent 24/48 with Audirvana, in excellent library and reading software available on Mac and Windows that you should also test one day.
PS 2. I am an objectivist who buy a Topping DX3 3 Pro and a headphone amplifier THX 789 : the two are excellent with my Sennheiser HD 660 et the Topping with an amplifier Gemincore Class D...
