Clearly not, because Amir said:
..............Our overall performance is the same with HDMI relative to Coax Input...........................
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Clearly not, because Amir said:
..............Our overall performance is the same with HDMI relative to Coax Input...........................
Don't forget even the AVR-X3500H is very good too for an AVR/prepro if you keep use amps with 28 dB gain or more up to 200 WPC.
Great, should be a simple FW update, I think.. Hopefully they will mention it in the next update log (if this fix is included).
Good thing you almost always measured it using optical or coax and analog inputs too. That serves as an alarm if the HDMI results are much different/worse. In the case of the Arcams, it seems that even the analog input measurements weren't good except I remember one did very well in pure direct or something.
@amirm - Still a little confused on what configurations do and do not cause this issue. Here's a real world example that may be relevant to a lot of people.
I have a mixed use 9.1 setup that I prioritize SQ for 2.1 stereo listening. The AVR is set to 11.1 mode so L & R are permanently disconnected, powering my mains with a dedicated amp. If I stream Tidal over HDMI from my HTPC with the AVR set to stereo, am I suffering from this down mixing degradation? Thx!
I have a mixed use 9.1 setup that I prioritize SQ for 2.1 stereo listening. The AVR is set to 11.1 mode so L & R are permanently disconnected, powering my mains with a dedicated amp. If I stream Tidal over HDMI from my HTPC with the AVR set to stereo, am I suffering from this down mixing degradation? Thx!
People should realize that volume = 88.5 is +8.5!!!!! That's well pass hearing damage territory even paired with amps with a low 23 dB gain.
Interesting point, maybe would be my guess (Assuming HDMI input was used). Having a 5.1 signal sent usually means the LFE needs to be downmixed into the stereo speakers. Arcam have a setting which defines if the sub is used in stereo mode if that was at default then different DSP work would be needed in a stereo downmix scenario if a sub/crossover was specified.
Last edited:
rvsixer
Addicted to Fun and Learning
From Amir's X3500H test:
"Overall, you have a lousy DAC but a good amplifier with Room EQ at attractive price in Denon AVR-X3500H. "
Can you elaborate why the 200 WPC is relevant? Why is an amplifier with too much power a problem? Can't I just turn the volume of the AVR down?
The SR6014 is identical to the X3600H in this regard, that is, you can disconnect the internal amps but only the front left and right. ECO of course won't solve your problem if you are hoping for better SINAD, in fact worse because ECO = amps clip even sooner. The amp disconnect trick only cure the front left and right obviously, not the other pre out channels.
Possibly. But won't most common use case be playing streaming audio content through the x4700H's internal apps (e.g., Tidal, Spotify, Pandora, etc.)? In that case, no HDMI, correct?
Yes, but that comment was based on the lower SINAD at 2.0 V output. Amir was asked to measure at the lower voltage and the SINAD improved to near the X4700H level.
Amir's comment on that: "1.2 volt is essentially the same. It goes crazy after 1.5 volt (vol = 80).
When we read ASR reviews, sometimes we have to go through a few more pages because Amir seems very open to request of further measurements in order to satisfy various conditions of use by different users. In this case, his measurements might have make a lot of X3500H users very happy if those users has paired the AVR with Emotiva, Outlaw 5000/7000 or even Monolith 200W amps because those amps have gain >=28 and quite high input impedance.
Also when Amir call it crazy it could still mean 74 dB SINAD at 2.0V, that's 0.02% THD+N, so other reviewers may call it "very good", in fact it would be within striking distance if compared with the more expensive Marantz AVP, the AV7705.
Still curious about performance over that HDMI 2.1 port . . . .Last call for measurements before I pack this unit.
These are Amir’s comments in the review. However, I requested a lower output level and he tested 1v and got this. Note he says .5 better SINAD at 1.2. Like the X3600, I believe it remains good until 1.4v. This puts us at a SINAD of 96 as long as you don’t exceed 1.4v. @amirm I wish this 1-1.4v performance would be added in the actual review and the 1V test was in the actual review as it is important. The summary of “lousy dac” is of course correct at 2V but this is an excellent unit kept under 1.4v. It is a shame the most important test is not in the main review. In the main SINAD chart at first glance it would appear this is a bad unit. However, the most common use is not using external amps which some could require 2V. However if just internal amps are used and volume is kept at 79.5 or .5 on the master volume (basically reference level) you get a SINAD of 96. The something goes for the X3600 and probably the X3700. As long as you use it within the under 1.4v parameters, you get excellent AVR performance. For those wanting to squeeze max performance out of a unit, using amp disconnect or preamp mode will get you that extra bit of performance. But don’t loose site of the excellent performance if you use the internal amps of around 96 if you keep it under reference level. For me that would mean it would be a waste of pretty good amps to go full preamp mode. Just get an external amp that requires less than 1.5 or so to fully drive them. Fortunately many of the most popular HT amps do this... Monolith, Outlaw, Emotiva.
Let me understand this correctly using a real example, first, assume my X4400H has the same (or pretend it is a X4700H) undocumented feature/bug and I have the following settings:
1) Amp assign setting - set to 11.1 layout, front left and right set to "Pre-out"
2) Speakers configurations - All 11 speakers and both subwoofer selected.
3) Front left and right pre-out connected to a 2 channel power amp. (external)
Now, when I listen to 2 channel stereo source via HDMI, say the Oppo BDP-105, if I select stereo "mode", without touching the amp assign and speaker config setting, that is conditions 1), 2) and 3) above remain the same.
So am I okay, without the degradation you found in that particular test? It certain sounds good to me.
Of all the standalone multichannel units Amir measured, at the <$4000 price point, none offers equal or better SINAD, IMD, linearity, 32 tones test, FR performance than the two mid range Denon AVRs, that's one main reason.
Looking at the review timing and results it looks like the following reviews could be affected:
Arcam AVR850 (Interesting read knowing now what Denon and Amir discovered)
Arcam AVR10
Arcam AV40
Arcam AVR390 (Results make it unlikely to be an issue for this one)
Onkyo PR-Z5100 (Results make it unlikely to be an issue for this one)
We then reach the Denon AVR-X3600H results which were confirmed good.
I wouldn't want to buy a avr and just use it as a av pre, when I already have external amps. If I bought a avr then add amps then ok. Or use some channels on avr like heights the rest external
Actually you get 96-98 SINAD up to 1.4V pre-out only if you pair them with external amplifiers. If you use the internal amps they are rated in the X3500 case at about 82-84 SINAD and a little more with X3600.
