DACs that better compensate for noise

[wineandmusic]

I admit I don't know how blind testing works, but here are a couple examples...maybe the testing wouldn't allow for these type of scenarios?

Just curious.

Suppose you told a group that you were going to play 5 128K pcm files and 5 DSD256 files and they were supposed to pick them...but then you only played 10 128K pcm files. What do you think the results would be?

Another example.
You do legitimate test between a yellow zone dac and a green zone dac, and there is a 50/50 split as to which was better?
Clearly one measures better, but results did not show that.

 

[solderdude]

I believe there are a lot more measurements than all the measurements done here....what would be a good measurement would be comparing the input before conversion to the output after the conversion, and I understand if that is not done here

Incorrect all measurements done by Amir have a known digital waveform. That is the reference along with the measuring limits of the test gear.

I am just saying that i believe they are not fallible.

You cannot imagine the things people believe. In their minds it is always true. At least that is what I believe based on personal observations.

 

[gvl]

Another example.
You do legitimate test between a yellow zone dac and a green zone dac, and there is a 50/50 split as to which was better?
Clearly one measures better, but results did not show that.

A 50/50 split would perfectly confirm the ideas that are circulating here.

 

[wineandmusic]

Incorrect all measurements done by Amir have a known digital waveform. That is the reference along with the measuring limits of the test gear.

I don't understand this statement? My suggestion was to compare the analog in to the analog out. Again, i don't know if it is feasible or not...maybe he doesn't have the right test equipment, or it would be too time consuming, or that he just doesn't believe it would make a difference. I will repeat, I am not an audio engineer, but my thinking is if a dac's function is to accurately reproduce that which was previously digitized, that to me that would be a good test, if you can confidently say that a dac accurately reproduced the original input signal....and I have hard that Miska has done this.

 

[wineandmusic]

A 50/50 split would perfectly confirm the ideas that are circulating here.

but you can get 50/50 just by guessing and not even listening...it is non-conclusive...and it was just one example. I could give many other examples of why blind testing is fallible, or you can google and find many that aren't just common sense.

 

[gvl]

but you can get 50/50 just by guessing and not even listening...it is non-conclusive.

Exactly. If you do a proper level matched blind test on reasonably good DACs it's results will be no better than guessing.

 

[wineandmusic]

You cannot imagine the things people believe. In their minds it is always true. At least that is what I believe based on personal observations.

belief is based on ones knowledge, logic, and experience. By someone telling them contrary to their belief, adds to their experience, and it may add positively or negatively to their belief. A belief is not something that can be forced, so knowledge should be shared with patience and without any expectations. People can also have strong beliefs or weak beliefs.

 

[Sal1950]

but you can get 50/50 just by guessing and not even listening...it is non-conclusive...and it was just one example. I could give many other examples of why blind testing is fallible, or you can google and find many that aren't just common sense.

You keep hammering away looking for ways to justify you hearing differences between components that don't exist when compared under tightly bias controlled listening. You can "what if" till the end of time but it's never going to turn illusion into reality.

 

[wineandmusic]

Exactly. If you do a proper level matched blind test on reasonably good DACs it's results will be no better than guessing.

My guess is that you would get similar results between

You keep hammering away looking for ways to justify you hearing differences between components that don't exist when compared under tightly bias controlled listening. You can "what if" till the end of time but it's never going to turn illusion into reality.

I am not hammering away at anything, and as a matter of fact I haven't even re-addressed it...i am only responding to questions or accusations against me.

 

[Blumlein 88]

but you can get 50/50 just by guessing and not even listening...it is non-conclusive...and it was just one example. I could give many other examples of why blind testing is fallible, or you can google and find many that aren't just common sense.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dac-loop-vs-the-original-can-you-hear-it.448/

Try this test. You can download files that are two copies of the digital original, and one which has been sent thru DA/AD conversion 8 times. See if you can hear a difference.

 

[Sal1950]

I could give many other examples of why blind testing is fallible, or you can google and find many that aren't just common sense.

I am not hammering away at anything, and as a matter of fact I haven't even re-addressed it...i am only responding to questions or accusations against me.

It's statements like the above first post that show you trying to come at the same position from the side. Your post attempts to devalue blind testing because you have read other subjectivists doing the same, claiming blind testing is fallible. Hell anything is fallible but when done under scientifically controlled conditions, blind testing will give completely accurate and repeatable results dispite some things you may have read.

 

[solderdude]

I don't understand this statement? My suggestion was to compare the analog in to the analog out.

The exact same is true for the analog tests. There is a test signal generated by the test device. This is known and the output is measured.
When the input is a true reference the output plot shows the actual changes provided the limits of the test equipment are not reached and the device receives the proper signals under specified conditions. For this the tester is responsible. We have to assume Amir knows what he is doing. In some cases he has been pointed towards suspect results.
That's how measurements work. One can screw it up, do it right, not measure all aspects or dive in deep when certain test results warrant this.
Testing is time consuming.
Using the ears it is far easier to screw things up. Only very few people actually use their ears correctly as a measurement device. Hearing in general is very unreliable as a repetitive test device but can be used to enjoy music with.
The measure of enjoyment has more to do with personal preference and recording quality than technical performance.

What pkane does is compare 2 signals like a null tester. It has several limits in what it can do. You need to really understand what these limits are to properly interpret the results. Paul himself as well as a few others understand these limits.

 

[wineandmusic]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dac-loop-vs-the-original-can-you-hear-it.448/

Try this test. You can download files that are two copies of the digital original, and one which has been sent thru DA/AD conversion 8 times. See if you can hear a difference.

I have no desire to. I am sure i couldn't tell the difference...even amir couldn't by reading the thread, but it is of no interest to me. I came here wanting to know opinions about dacs, and I got valuable information from both the red/yellow/green zone chart of different dacs, and peoples opinions, which convinced me that I would likely be disappointed if i bought a qutest, so i have no future desire to buy one, and will continue to be content with what i have. I only am talking about dbt testing in response to others...i really have no interest...it is not of interest to me...i got what i came for...i may look around a little bit more, but in all likelihood, i won't visit back until I am ready to buy an amp or something else.

Enjoy your day and thanks for sharing.

 

[LTig]

I don't understand this statement? My suggestion was to compare the analog in to the analog out.

A DAC has no analog input.

 

[wineandmusic]

The exact same is true for the analog tests. There is a test signal generated by the test device. This is known and the output is measured.
When the input is a true reference the output plot shows the actual changes provided the limits of the test equipment are not reached and the device receives the proper signals under specified conditions.
That's how measurements work.

What pkane does is compare 2 signals like a null tester. It has several limits in what it can do. You need to really understand what these limits are to properly interpret the results. Paul himself as well as a few others understand these limits.

THanks for sharing...like i said, i really don't have much interest or even a desire to understand the charts...I am merely responding to posts made to me, and to be honest, it's kind of getting tiresome. I didn't want to get into the weeds. You shared your opinion and I saw the green yellow red charts for the dacs, and I am ready to move on...again, thanks for you input and advice. I used your advice to make a decision not to desire a qutest any more. THanks and have a nice day.

 

[LTig]

I have no desire to. I am sure i couldn't tell the difference...even amir couldn't by reading the thread, but it is of no interest to me. .

One can lead the horse to the spring, but you can't force it to drink.

 

[wineandmusic]

A DAC has no analog input.

analog before digitized obviously...i never said the dac had an analog input...

 

[LTig]

analog before digitized obviously...i never said the dac had an analog input...

And what then about the ADC?

 

[wineandmusic]

And what then about the ADC?

could care less

 

[RayDunzl]

I believe there are a lot more measurements than all the measurements done here....what would be a good measurement would be comparing the input before conversion to the output after the conversion

Is that not exactly what the various types of sine wave tests do? Compare the mathematically pure input to the always somewhat degraded output?

could care less

Don't waste your time replying, I won't waste any more of mine reading.