DACs that better compensate for noise

[Jinjuku]

i have a fan in my computer but i cannot hear it...so i guess if it's a quiet fan then it is ok.

If a fan spins in a computer, but you didn't hear it, did it actually spin?

 

[LTig]

fair enough...
what is refreshing is that there are beliefs so much different than the other site, that more closely match my own beliefs.

The 'we' here beliefs in the results of scientific research, which tells us the limits of human hearing, its fallacies, and how good the measurement results needs to be for a DAC to be transparent (meaning better numbers do not increase sound quality - perfect is perfect) under given circumstances.

The 'other site' trusts their own hearing, thereby ignoring 80 years of scientific research in psychoacoustics, not knowing how bias works and how easily one can get fooled by ones own senses. The problem is that without controlled blind listening different audio units do sound different to them, so the experience is real for them.

I still am not willing to do "blind" level match testing or whatever that entails, but I will work harder to convince myself one way or the other now, and if I am able to convince myself one is decisively better, i will explain exactly in detail what i have found, and then anyone that cares to, can do a "more professional" test with what i find.

Pity. All results you'll get regardless of how hard you work will be mute without level matched blind testing. And then you expect 'us' to prove you're right or wrong?

Of course, it is possible, that once i put more effort into finding a difference, that I may come to the same conclusion that there is no difference, and this is a moot point. For me, if it is not an "easily" identifiable difference, it is not worth the money, and right now the qutest is the only dac that really has my interest.

Full agreement with this.

 

[100rounddrum]

All well designed and implemented DACs will sound the same unless the designers have intentionally coloured the output. If you want to save yourself some money so that you can invest it where it matters, speakers and headphones, and even then there are diminishing returns, do yourself a favour and actually participate in some well done blind listening tests. You may be annoyed by us now, but you'll thank us later when your wallet has more money in it.

What do you mean ''Unless the designers have intentionally coloured the output'' How is that even possible?

 

[100rounddrum]

Yes every DAC and headphone amp with a certain THD sounds the same. In fact, our ears are a lie.

The ONLY way to listen to music without any bias, is through a real-time graph.

 

[LTig]

What do you mean ''Unless the designers have intentionally coloured the output'' How is that even possible?

The typical ways to do this:

• Use a tube output stage with no or very low feedback: results in higher THD
• Use a discrete solid state output stage with no or very low feedback: results in higher THD
• Use an output transformer: results in higher THD, some compression and non flat frequency response
• Use a improper reconstruction filter (or none): results in non flat frequency response and aliasing

 

[LTig]

Yes every DAC and headphone amp with a certain THD sounds the same. In fact, our ears are a lie.

The ONLY way to listen to music without any bias, is through a real-time graph.

This is viewing, not listening.

 

[wineandmusic]

If a fan spins in a computer, but you didn't hear it, did it actually spin?

i actually checked the other day, still spinning... (grin)
I suppose if/when it stops, then i would have more problems than noise.

 

[SIY]

Why is anyone feeding this? Guys, it eats attention.

 

[wineandmusic]

The 'we' here beliefs in the results of scientific research, which tells us the limits of human hearing, its fallacies, and how good the measurement results needs to be for a DAC to be transparent (meaning better numbers do not increase sound quality - perfect is perfect) under given circumstances.

The 'other site' trusts their own hearing, thereby ignoring 80 years of scientific research in psychoacoustics, not knowing how bias works and how easily one can get fooled by ones own senses. The problem is that without controlled blind listening different audio units do sound different to them, so the experience is real for them.

Pity. All results you'll get regardless of how hard you work will be mute without level matched blind testing. And then you expect 'us' to prove you're right or wrong?

Full agreement with this.

To be honest, I trust "MISKA" knows what he is talking about when he suggests upsampling so that during the D->A conversion process that noise that is generated as part of the D->A process is less problematic....I think there is a lot more science involved than just 2 measurement charts. That is just one "for example". I also believe there are problems with any controlled testing, blind, dbt, or otherwise. I also believe that human hearing is far more complex than anyone can entirely conceive. I still put myself somewhere in the middle between the 2 sides, but more towards objective testing.
Because of budgetary reasons, to me, if an upgrade is not easily and readily different and repeatable, I have no interest in upgrading. If however, i had bottomless pockets, lots of time to waste, and a desire to have the absolute best sounding system, I likely would lean a little more in the other direction, even where there was doubt. For now, I am happy with "good enough". And again, i never expected "you" to prove whether i am right or wrong....as stated, I really could care less. I don't have confidence one way or the other, so how could I expect someone else to have an opinion based on my thoughts.
I have never been part of a "we" or "them" crowd, and never will...I am socially dysfunctional, independent, who marches to my own drum, and expect no one to follow, nor do i wish for anyone to follow me...what is right for me, is right for me, and what is right for you, is right for you.

 

[wineandmusic]

Why is anyone feeding this? Guys, it eats attention.

another useless comment.
I never understand people that make troll statements to call out a "supposed troll"...just ignore and move on yourself.

 

[100rounddrum]

Sure you do...

While it can be a pain, setting up a level matched double blind test will tell you a lot more about it than all the people out there who tell you what you are supposed to hear.

The brain is very obliging of our expectations for the most part...that is just how it works. If the $10k DAC is supposed to sound better, it magically will. If the digital USB cable I bought because some online audio assclown told me it improves the sound, then gosh it really does, etc..

Do yourself the biggest favor of your audio life, and prove some of this for yourself...it can lead to a very different audio future.

For the many thousands I was about to pay for some overhyped DAC, I have gotten loaded up with some quite nice (to me) speakers, which have ACTUALLY improved my sound system.

Keep reading...you aren't asking crazy questions...even if the answers sound crazy.

I was using a HRT Microstreamer a while back, while I had the way cheaper Hifimediy Sabre DAC at the same time.

I thought the Microstreamer would be superior in every way, since it had more power and better specs. So I listened to it for a while with my Audio Technica AD1000x headphones I had at the time, never bothering to connect the cheaper DAC to it.

One day I decided to just plug the headphone in the cheaper DAC, and listen to how it sounds, expecting harsher treble etc.

Turned out, it's treble was smoother than the Microstreamer.

How would this be possible, if I was expecting the sound to be worse, yet it sounded more pleasing to me?

 

[gvl]

To be honest, I trust "MISKA" knows what he is talking about when he suggests upsampling so that during the D->A conversion process that noise that is generated as part of the D->A process is less problematic....

Gotcha, so the original question is in fact about the noise you can't hear, not the common mode noise which you typically can. May I ask, why bother ?

 

[wineandmusic]

Gotcha, so the original question is in fact about the noise you can't hear, not the common mode noise which you typically can. May I ask, why bother ?

Not sure I understand your question, but,
No this is just "another point" ...my original point had to do with usb noise...this point is about noise generated as part of the A->D conversion. I just thought I would throw it out there in response to the inference that the only science is the science on this site.

 

[Inner Space]

If a fan spins in a computer, but you didn't hear it, did it actually spin?

If a man speaks in a forest, and his wife isn't there to hear him, is he still wrong?

 

[gvl]

Not sure I understand your question, but,
No this is just "another point" ...my original point had to do with usb noise...this point is about noise generated as part of the A->D conversion. I just thought I would throw it out there in response to the inference that the only science is the science on this site.

The science is you normally should concern yourself with in-band noise, random or not, as long it's is not a part of the original signal. The measurements Amir performs give a pretty good idea about it. The out of band noise that Miska is on a crusade to eliminate with his solution isn't much of a concern unless it's a pathological case with very high levels. And these kind of issues typically surface up on the 90kHz THD tests and Amir usually digs deeper to understand what's going on in the ultrasonic range. Amir can't generally test for the ground loop type of noises as they are very specific the actual environment, but they usually manifest themselves as audible hum, buz, etc. If it happens you will surely notice it, you don't need a 30k analyzer for it. That said, I think a test that reveals if a DAC is susceptible to ground loop issues could be useful, if it's possible.

 

[solderdude]

I think there is a lot more science involved than just 2 measurement charts.

absolutely. You need to fully understand all the plots.

That is just one "for example". I also believe there are problems with any controlled testing, blind, dbt, or otherwise.

Please enlighten us, also since you never really done this how would you know ?

 

[wineandmusic]

Please enlighten us, also since you never really done this how would you know ?

Regarding blind testing, I can't enlighten you anymore than you can enlighten me. I am just saying that i believe they are not fallible. You are entitled to your opinion just as I am entitled to mine. ABX testing will result in similar results even when there are huge discrepencies in quality that should be easily spotted.
If you google, I am sure you can find hundreds of links that suggest it can result in inconclusive results...but it is not my effort to convince you one way or the other...i am just stating that is my belief, that they are not perfect or conclusive.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Don't DACS with transfo

I can't enlighten you anymore than you can enlighten me. I am just saying that i believe they are not fallible. You are entitled to your opinion just as I am entitled to mine. ABX testing will result in similar results even when there are huge discrepencies in quality that should be easily spotted.
If you google, I am sure you can find hundreds of links that suggest it can result in inconclusive results...but it is not my effort to convince you one way or the other...i am just stating that is my belief, that they are not perfect or conclusive.

We're not big on just belief here on ASR. Your entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

 

[wineandmusic]

absolutely. You need to fully understand all the plots.

I believe there are a lot more measurements than all the measurements done here....what would be a good measurement would be comparing the input before conversion to the output after the conversion, and I understand if that is not done here, i do know that both Pkane and Miska do that....i am not going to get in a pissing contest here...i came here for some advice, and I got enough advice to hold me over for now. I am not out to prove anything to anyone....and I am not looking for conflict. You are not going to change my mind on certain things, just as I won't change your mind, so there is no sense in arguing about some things. I appreciate what you have shared with me...thank you.

 

[wineandmusic]

We're not big on just belief here on ASR. Your entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

humorous...this is probably why this site gets a bad wrap all over the place...i didn't know that until i started searching the last couple hours, but people laugh at this site and members. You guys should try to clean up your act, not try to be such "know-it-alls", and not be so abrasive....I haven't said anything conclusively...and I make an honest effort to say "i believe"....I am not an audio engineer, and do not pretend to have any of the answers.