SMSL M400 & M200 new dacs!

[misterdog]

It's more that people claim to hear differences...

I'll bet there isn't one on the analyzer. What would be 'breaking in?'

Rather than starting the usual cyclical argument why not start a poll and see how many people have experienced change of sound after burn in.
You may be surprised.

 

[BDWoody]

Rather than starting the usual cyclical argument why not start a poll and see how many people have experienced change of sound after burn in.
You may be surprised.

As long as the poll includes only those who have done a proper controlled listening test, I'll bet there won't be any.

Rather than make the usual claims, how about a controlled test so it isn't meaningless.

 

[misterdog]

Though when noted designers of audio equipment say there is burn in I am happy to accept what I hear and has been confirmed by experts in the field of audio engineering.
John Westlake, designer of the Audiolab M-DAC, Pro-ject DAC for example.

The end.

 

[dmac6419]

Hello everyone, I received my DAC M200.

From the unpacking I liked how it was well done. Then I was surprised to find a SMPS of 5vdc 4.5 A.

So I plugged it into the USB and LibreElec input (Raspberry PI 4) and the application recognized there. It plays well but I did not listen seriously (plugged via a buffer into amplifiers (2) and speakers)

The only problem is that the remote control does not work. I inserted new batteries that I have measured, but don't work. I have to check on the dac .... anyone have an idea?

Press the C button

 

[Fimbul]

Though when noted designers of audio equipment say there is burn in I am happy to accept what I hear and has been confirmed by experts in the field of audio engineering.
John Westlake, designer of the Audiolab M-DAC, Pro-ject DAC for example.

The end.

Aren't there just as many that claim the opposite? I don't claim to understand it on the technical level, but I'm just as ready to aknowlege that people need some time to getting used to new stuff. People will happily report a room to be way warmer than it really is, when they arrive from outside. On that background I tend to read "This device needed breaking in." as "My ears needed breaking in." at the same time.

Looking at why acclaimed audio engineers would spread such wisdom, I can see why they would want you to at least give yourself a chance to get used to a new sound, as opposed to you immediately sending a product back.

 

[BDWoody]

John Westlake, designer of the Audiolab M-DAC, Pro-ject DAC for example.

Then that's a shame...he shouldn't rely on that nonsense.

The end.

That's exactly what they hope for...

I wonder how whatever is burning only burns where it makes it sound better? How does it know when to stop burning? What exactly IS burning?

How do they know how, what, or when to measure as they go along? All that burning during testing much be a bitch to deal with in the lab. Change something, go on break for 200 hours until you can listen or measure...

These are the burning questions!

Or, they just want you to let your ears adjust...like they do...especially if it is goes beyond the return window. Every day you keep it, the likelihood of it going back drops...

 

[misterdog]

Amazing though that since the sterling work of this site and others that the number of people who used to claim that 'all DAC's sound the same' has now diminished.

 

[Harmonie]

Some pictures of unpacking..

Hi everybody.
I'm following closely this thread and the other one as I'm about to order the SMSL M400 or the Topping D90 ?
So similar in specs & price. Thanks to WollfX's measurement's I guess that soon the Sinad chart (very well made !!) will show the M400 ranking before or just after the D90.
D90 has more maturity and seems better built ? The transformer seems also heaftier.
But ModDIY's pictures show the way his M200 is shipped !? No comparison to D90 which comes in a nice double boxed packaging ...

Eager to read new opinions

 

[misterdog]

Then that's a shame...he shouldn't rely on that nonsense.

Sorry but I tend to agree with someone who has decades of experience in his chosen profession .

Perhaps you could list how many DAC's you have designed and built, how many patents you have in audio engineering and how many hundreds/thousands of pieces of audio equipment you have heard.

Regarding the actual process of burn in , I believe it is usually attributable to electrolytic capacitors, mostly.

Quite a few on this M400 board.

 

[Magnifico]

You guys don´t need to pick a fight....ears can be irritated....measurements not.
Ears are subjective...measurements aren´t.

So measure it for gods sake. Burn in of the stuff has to be measureable otherwise it´s nonsense.

There is a reason why there was a show called "mythbusters" where they bombed or prooved claims from the past.

I can imagine some sort of burn in....but can´t imagine it would take hourse or even 24hrs to get it done.
Nonsense from my point of view.
On the other hand....how the hell are they designing the stuff if it changes so much ???
Do they always wait for 24hrs for every chips to be able to be tested....

A lot of theory involved in this theme anyway.
But I insist it would have to be measureable or nonsense.

Currently I´m burning in my new D70.
From what I´m seeing I´m very unimpressed from the build quality of M400. My eyes may be too old....but do you guys see film capacitors?
That´s what I would expect from a device that price class and I have seen on Topping devices (D70/D90).

 

[BDWoody]

Sorry but I tend to agree with someone who has decades of experience in his chosen profession .

Perhaps you could list how many DAC's you have designed and built, how many patents you have in audio engineering and how many hundreds/thousands of pieces of audio equipment you have heard.

Regarding the actual process of burn in , I believe it is usually attributable to electrolytic capacitors, mostly.

Quite a few on this M400 board.

Rather than drag this further OT, and to better address the burn-in question with a somewhat broader audience with a better chance of participation from some of our members who have actual design experience, maybe a separate thread would be helpful.

 

[Harmonie]

Hi, new here, but don't mind that. I have received my M400 today. I've ordered to Germany via HifiExpress during the pre-order discount and received it via Amazon prio. As Mandy promissed me, there was no additional customs tax.

Originally I was after the Topping D90 MQA, but the M400 was released right when I was ready to order and since it has the same chip and I prefer its optics, I opted for the latter. I hope it will test at least as good as the D90 - the suspense is unbearable.

Unfortunately I had to send in my Emotiva A-100 for repairs last week and I do not have any capable spare lying around.
I can however talk about the build a little bit: The top plate is actually very glossy - almost like a mirror - and will be pain to keep dust free. It looks beautiful, though!
What didn't make a good impression is the control knob. It's made from flimsy plastic and is wiggly to the touch. It has a nice metallic rim around its circumference and I'm planning to use it in exclusive DAC mode, so it doesn't bother me much.

I'm dieing from not being able to test it properly, hence I'm chiming in here to distract myself. If you have questions about the build or menu, go ahead.

Hello Fimbul,

Your comment about the volume knob of the M400 and also Wolf's comment about it's workmanship. tend me to prefer the D90.
I'm eager to read your further listening comments when available.

 

[Harmonie]

You guys don´t need to pick a fight....ears can be irritated....measurements not.
Ears are subjective...measurements aren´t.

So measure it for gods sake. Burn in of the stuff has to be measureable otherwise it´s nonsense.

There is a reason why there was a show called "mythbusters" where they bombed or prooved claims from the past.

I can imagine some sort of burn in....but can´t imagine it would take hourse or even 24hrs to get it done.
Nonsense from my point of view.
On the other hand....how the hell are they designing the stuff if it changes so much ???
Do they always wait for 24hrs for every chips to be able to be tested....

A lot of theory involved in this theme anyway.
But I insist it would have to be measureable or nonsense.

Currently I´m burning in my new D70.
From what I´m seeing I´m very unimpressed from the build quality of M400. My eyes may be too old....but do you guys see film capacitors?
That´s what I would expect from a device that price class and I have seen on Topping devices (D70/D90).

Hi Magnifico,
Workmanship of the M400 is all I'm concerned about as well, therefore D90 is my trend ....

 

[Veri]

Sorry but I tend to agree with someone who has decades of experience in his chosen profession .

Perhaps you could list how many DAC's you have designed and built, how many patents you have in audio engineering and how many hundreds/thousands of pieces of audio equipment you have heard.

Regarding the actual process of burn in , I believe it is usually attributable to electrolytic capacitors, mostly.

Quite a few on this M400 board.

You "believe"? Unproven nonsense really does not belong on this forum, and if you want to seriously challenge it, make a thread about it for god's sake. No one cares about your beliefs regarding capacitors...

 

[ModDIY]

But ModDIY's pictures show the way his M200 is shipped !? No comparison to D90 which comes in a nice double boxed packaging ...

Hi, I certainly did not choose to buy the M200 for packaging, which I find by the way very suitable. The box was well packed and covered with bubble wrap.

PS: It is true that a black box is more beautiful!

 

[Harmonie]

Hi,
Me neither, but the case, the button, the packaging ... alltogther it gives (me) a certain image.

 

[Fimbul]

Hi Magnifico,
Workmanship of the M400 is all I'm concerned about as well, therefore D90 is my trend ....

As I said, I'm not able to listen to it right now and I'm afraid it will take quite some time for my amp to return. I noticed strong static noise on the left channel of my Emotiva A-100 (Emotiva kinda being infamous for shoddy QA), so I had to send it to the reseller, who - in the worst case - will send it to Emotiva in the US, who will take some time to repair it and then send it back to Germany. I'm still expecting it to take a few weeks from today. Others will long have made their review by then! I'm listening on an SMSL M3 right now and the M400 (and the D90 before) was ment to be my shortcut to endgame in the DAC department.

I can only help you with the points that made me prefer the M400 over the D90: I prefer the optics and the format fits a tiny little bit better on top of my amp. I didn't like the white on black display of the D90 much, but the color display of the M400 is more of a gimmick, if you ask me. Despite me planning to mostly use the M400 as DAC-only, I do prefer a knob over the D90's buttons. You never know what use you will make of a device in the future. I was expecting the measurements to best the D90, which it kinda achieved, going by Wolf's measurement. The IMD hump is negligible it seems, and tbh I don't even really understand what that is. Btw. shouldn't that be an ESS issue, not AK?!
I'm an IT guy, not an electric engineer. That said I do appreciate measurments and somebody pointing out that the one is better than the other.

About MQA: I've read so many statements for and against it that I decided "F#ck it, I'll check it out myself!". Actually before deciding to check out MQA, I was also looking at the Soncoz SGD-1. If you're not after MQA, you should check that out as well!

 

[THIBAULT]

[QUOTE = "Harmonie, poste: 415573, membre: 16438"] Bonjour Magnifico,
La fabrication du M400 est tout ce qui me préoccupe également, donc le D90 est ma tendance .... [/ CITATION]
Hi, I bought the dac M400 and it is true that the aesthetic changes from my standards with traditional hi-fi devices entirely made of metal, very heavy with a sober but classy finish (my stereo is all Cambridge Ampli Azur A851 and CXNV2). So there with the plastic button, the polycarbonate top, a display that is not to my taste, I find that SMSL should change the designer. But inside what dac and what sound. I use it as a dac so I do not have the use of the button and on top is my SP200 .... so the aesthetics is resolved. I do not know the D90 but the aesthetics are more in my standards. I opted for the M400 because I liked the SP200. I say it's good to have a choice, there is something for everyone. Regards

 

[Harmonie]

As I said, I'm not able to listen to it right now and I'm afraid it will take quite some time for my amp to return. I noticed strong static noise on the left channel of my Emotiva A-100 (Emotiva kinda being infamous for shoddy QA), so I had to send it to the reseller, who - in the worst case - will send it to Emotiva in the US, who will take some time to repair it and then send it back to Germany. I'm still expecting it to take a few weeks from today. Others will long have made their review by then! I'm listening on an SMSL M3 right now and the M400 (and the D90 before) was ment to be my shortcut to endgame in the DAC department.

I can only help you with the points that made me prefer the M400 over the D90: I prefer the optics and the format fits a tiny little bit better on top of my amp. I didn't like the white on black display of the D90 much, but the color display of the M400 is more of a gimmick, if you ask me. Despite me planning to mostly use the M400 as DAC-only, I do prefer a knob over the D90's buttons. You never know what use you will make of a device in the future. I was expecting the measurements to best the D90, which it kinda achieved, going by Wolf's measurement. The IMD hump is negligible it seems, and tbh I don't even really understand what that is. Btw. shouldn't that be an ESS issue, not AK?!
I'm an IT guy, not an electric engineer. That said I do appreciate measurments and somebody pointing out that the one is better than the other.

About MQA: I've read so many statements for and against it that I decided "F#ck it, I'll check it out myself!". Actually before deciding to check out MQA, I was also looking at the Soncoz SGD-1. If you're not after MQA, you should check that out as well!

I'm not so worried about the measurements. Frankly I also prefer the look of the M400 and I do care about the use of the knob, as volume, to control my 4 Audiolabor Stark monoblocs made somewhere near your location maybe
It's my dilema

 

[HITMAN]

HI could any one tell me about the sound of the M400 instead of the technical data at the moment I have a pioneer UO5 which I am using just the dac part through a SP

200 THX the dac is the ESS 9018 and before spending £650 would like to know if there would be a noticeable improvement if anybody could shed some light on this I would be grateful.