Topping D10 vs D70 music presentation

[LuckyLuke575]

If they sound different, while both getting solid reviews on the charts, then we could have a serious problem and a hole in the review methodology. Perhaps it's time to produce a graph like we have for the frequency response for headphones. Would it be possible to produce such a graph for a DAC or AMP @amirm?

 

[Killingbeans]

I think Amir mentioned that he stopped measuring frequency responce on DACs because they were all ruler flat?

 

[LuckyLuke575]

I think Amir mentioned that he stopped measuring frequency responce on DACs because they were all ruler flat?

The 'ruler flat' graph is probably the frequency response. Some of the poor performing DACs were actually drooping on the bottom and top end. If that's the frequency response and it's flat on the tests, then it would be interesting to know why some DACs could sound different. I would think that level (mis)matching had a lot to do with the different sound (assuming it's not just perception).

 

[tensor9]

The Topping D10 has been reported to have an inverted polarity. Perhaps it could be that?

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/06/measurements-topping-d10-dac-and-few.html

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/06/musings-and-listening-on-absolute.html

Perhaps try to invert polarity (there's an option for that in Foobar, JRiver... perhaps Volumio too) on one of the two DACs and listen again.

I've tested my speakers with the Signal Pop app with a D10, and the speakers play with the correct polarity.

 

[raif71]

I like this thread @yabadaba , Yabba dabba doooooo

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

I will ask my son to swap the DACS (or not swap them) and (a) see if I can reliably tell (a) if swapped and (b) which DAC was in use each time.

do this and then report back

 

[yabadaba]

do this and then report back

Yes, he's 'booked in' for today to do this and I'll report back later.

 

[yabadaba]

Well,

I'm not sure why everyone is so focused on level-matching, while output voltage is a pretty basic data for gear being measured here (unless our host found otherwise).

So, according to @amirm:

- D70 using RCA, 0db volume: 2.080V
- D10: 2.110V

So there is no need for level-match here.

That being said: Next step, you need to do your listening blind.

Okay, thanks...I'm glad you found and quoted the output levels.....and that explains why I was finding that leaving the amp volume control exactly the same for each was giving me the closest match. With the specific track I'm using to compare though , it does make the D10 'feel' louder (I believe) because bass guitar and cymbals are quite forward in the mix and those are the frequency ranges I feel are more pronounced with the D10 when compared to the D70. I still hear a difference between the two with other music but to differing extents.

 

[raif71]

I'm not surprised you hear a difference @yabadaba . All I can say is that d10 uses ESS dac while d70 uses AKM chip. I have already conveyed my experiences using both dacs in the Topping nx4 dsd (ESS) and Fiio Q5s (AKM) and clearly I could hear differences. I use both equally now and I enjoy both. Having said that, I respect what most experts here are saying that DACs with equally well measured data will and should sound the same.

 

[KSTR]

The Topping D10 has been reported to have an inverted polarity. Perhaps it could be that?

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/06/measurements-topping-d10-dac-and-few.html

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/06/musings-and-listening-on-absolute.html

Perhaps try to invert polarity (there's an option for that in Foobar, JRiver... perhaps Volumio too) on one of the two DACs and listen again.

Good point.
Polarity difference is a gross signal signal change and very likely to be audible. This, together with level mismatch (yes, 0.1dB can already make a difference) will most certainly dominate all the other measurable differences. Actually, polarity inversion audible effect is immune to moderate level differences. Polarity inversion typical impact on perceived sound is a change of soundstage and a timbre change in the bass / low mid region.
Thererfore, polarity matching requirement for proper testing is a stringent as is the level matching which should be obvious as the goal is to have as identical output waveforms as possible.

 

[VintageFlanker]

I'm not surprised you hear a difference @yabadaba . All I can say is that d10 uses ESS dac while d70 uses AKM chip. I have already conveyed my experiences using both dacs in the Topping nx4 dsd (ESS) and Fiio Q5s (AKM) and clearly I could hear differences. I use both equally now and I enjoy both. Having said that, I respect what most experts here are saying that DACs with equally well measured data will and should sound the same.

I regret: Just because you experienced difference (probably under uncontrolled testing) with one AKM implementation vs one ESS implementation doesn't make this a fact.

 

[KSTR]

Having said that, I respect what most experts here are saying that DACs with equally well measured data will and should sound the same.

True, but one needs to consider the disclaimer in the fineprint: ... if we have measured and compared the relevant stuff, not those useless simplified numbers like 1kHz SINAD etc.

 

[raif71]

I regret: Just because you experienced difference (probably under uncontrolled testing) with one AKM implementation vs one ESS implementation doesn't make this as a fact.

True and I didn't said it was fact.

 

[yabadaba]

I'm not surprised you hear a difference @yabadaba . All I can say is that d10 uses ESS dac while d70 uses AKM chip. I have already conveyed my experiences using both dacs in the Topping nx4 dsd (ESS) and Fiio Q5s (AKM) and clearly I could hear differences. I use both equally now and I enjoy both. Having said that, I respect what most experts here are saying that DACs with equally well measured data will and should sound the same.

Yes, I'm someone who leans strongly towards science and this forum has been a fresh of breath air for me and has reigned in some of the rubbish that get's spouted elsewhere. I know there will be a scientific/measurable explanation for the differences we are hearing, but possibly that is not captured by (or discerned from) the tests being covered here.

I'm not skilled/experienced enough in this area of science to confidently propose reasons and so happy to be told this can't be the case, but in respect to frequency response I wonder whether, (in this example), the sound difference might be to do with the transition between those frequencies, rather than their relative volumes? I've been trying to avoid subjective description of what I hear (because I agree that a lot of the terms are ambiguous), but I'll risk it briefly. The track I'm playing has a bass guitar prominent in the mix and each note sounds more defined with the D10, whereas with the D70 I don't hear (and feel if played loud enough) as much impact when the note is played, though the bass is still very much present.

So, I'm thinking maybe it's the initial change in the overall frequency response (when a bass note is played) that is being reproduced differently. So, it might be that a constant tone played at that frequency wouldn't capture that difference? Music I've played where the mix is more dense (and different frequencies are mixed up together more) doesn't reveal the difference I am hearing as much and with this type of music the overall tonal balance sounds very similar. I'm really just guessing/hypothesizing here and maybe this transition thing is already accounted for in one of the tests.

 

[MZKM]

Well,

I'm not sure why everyone is so focused on level-matching, while output voltage is a pretty basic data for gear being measured here (unless our host found otherwise).

So, according to @amirm:

- D70 using RCA, 0db volume: 2.080V
- D10: 2.110V

So there is no need for level-match here.

That being said: Next step, you need to do your listening blind.

Newer versions of the D10 seem to have lowered the voltage to deal with inter-sample overs, as archmiago measured 1.5Vrms, and his is more recent than Amir’s. Not sure if a firmware change or physical.

 

[BDWoody]

@yabadaba . All I can say is that d10 uses ESS dac while d70 uses AKM chip.

That does seen to be about all you can say...or some similar variation, every chance you get.
Anything other than popular vote to come to that?

 

[yabadaba]

Newer versions of the D10 seem to have lowered the voltage to deal with inter-sample overs, as archmiago measured 1.5Vrms, and his is more recent than Amir’s. Not sure if a firmware change or physical.

Okay, they sound the same or very close with the amp volume at the same setting and if anything I perceive the D10 as slightly louder, so I'd be surprised if I have the later version. Think I got mine about a year ago. Interesting about the firmware, let me check if user upgradeable and, if so, whether I am on the latest for each.

 

[raif71]

That does seen to be about all you can say...or some similar variation, every chance you get.
Anything other than popular vote to come to that?

I choose the situation wisely ie when the topic is relevant but everytime I do that, clampdown !!

 

[KSTR]

The track I'm playing has a bass guitar prominent in the mix and each note sounds more defined with the D10, whereas with the D70 I don't hear (and feel if played loud enough) as much impact when the note is played, though the bass is still very much present.

IME (also as a bass player) this a typical effect a switched polarity can have because bass guitar often has even-order harmonics which makes the waveform asymmetrical and at low frequencies our ears/brain interpret the actual waveform.
Can you invert the signal in your source (PC running a player software, etc)? If the impression of the sound differences remains the same for this track (preference for the D10), this is an indication that polarity may not be the main issue... level match of course is important but as I said before, the polarity impact is not that subtle so even several dB of level mismatch still gives mostly the same impressions / preferences.

 

[yabadaba]

IME (also as a bass player) this a typical effect a switched polarity can have because bass guitar often has even-order harmonics which makes the waveform asymmetrical and at low frequencies our ears/brain interpret the actual waveform.
Can you invert the signal in your source (PC running a player software, etc)? If the impression of the sound differences remains the same for this track (preference for the D10), this is an indication that polarity may not the main issue... level match of course is important but as I said before, the polarity impact is not that subtle so even several dB of level mismatch still gives mostly the same impressions / preferences.

I have a Yamaha subwoofer (not in use in the system I'm using with these DACs) and this is indeed the difference I have noted when toggling its phase switch back and forth. I don't believe Volumio has an easy way (though possibly via editing some of the code) to switch phase/polarity, but I could pull both over to my desk and connect to my W10 PC and then try with Foobar, (as a someone here said that does provide a switch option). Though I would then be looking at doing the test using a headphone amp (JDS Labs Atom or Schiit Magni 2) and Sennheiser HD650's ands am not sure whether headphones will highlight the differences as clearly as my speaker system does.