• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Topping D10 vs D70 music presentation

yabadaba

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2019
Messages
17
Likes
11
Hi, I've been swapping back and forth today between my new D70 (BT version) and my D10 (both via USB input and source/speakers remaining constant) and was quite surprised at just how different they sound. I've seen threads on here where DACs are compared and often the poster is asked, (among other things), if they were level matched. With this in mind I've tried various volume levels for each (all around the area where they subjectively sound matched) and no matter whether I feel one might be louder or quieter than the other, or both the same, the presentation difference I am hearing between the two persists and I find it really quite distinct.

Would this difference in what I am hearing likely be attributable to the different DAC chips, or other factors...op amps, circuit design etc...or just a combo of all this?
 

MediumRare

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 17, 2019
Messages
1,949
Likes
2,275
Location
Chicago
To be clear, you're using USB for both to do the comparison? (Not BT.) Did you have someone else do the switching so you didn't know which was which? What differences do you you hear?
 
OP
Y

yabadaba

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2019
Messages
17
Likes
11
Hi, yes USB for both and playing the same excerpt from the same track. No, I've just been switching between DACs myself. I could get my son to do it, but the difference is so clear that I am in absolutely no doubt I would be able to say whether same or different DAC to previous and also identify which is being used too. I really wasn't anticipating such a significant difference and was expecting them to sound very similar indeed, based on what I've learned from reading on this forum. In contrast I don't think I can hear any difference when switching between the D70 filters and if I do ever think I can then I absolutely would need a blind test to confirm that.

As regards the difference I am hearing, what is immediately evident to me when I switch back to the D10 from the D70 is that the mid-bass frequencies are more prominent. I don't know whether there is more mid-bass, or maybe the transition to/from those frequencies are different (some might describe this as more defined I guess), or maybe there is less low bass (and therefore mid-bass dominates), but the difference in presentation is evident.

I am also hearing the high frequencies more prominently via the D10. Again, a very clear difference but I wouldn't be so confident in narrowing that down any further, in regards to exactly where on the frequency spectrum. I suspect there are also other differences in presentation though I'd need to listen more to be sure, though the difference at the frequency extremes is what is very apparent and therefore what has struck me initially.

I would like to understand better what might be causing the presentation difference and would be good to determine which device is likely rendering a more neutral/transparent presentation.
 
Last edited:

M00ndancer

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 4, 2019
Messages
719
Likes
728
Location
Sweden
First a question: Have you volume matched them?
Second, there is something called sighted Bias. Your brain is fooling you, I'm afraid. You need to both have the same volume and do it blind.
 
OP
Y

yabadaba

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2019
Messages
17
Likes
11
First a question: Have you volume matched them?
Second, there is something called sighted Bias. Your brain is fooling you, I'm afraid. You need to both have the same volume and do it blind.
Hi, yes volume matched as best I can by ear...in fact I've tried tweaking volume levels back and forth around the point where I feel they are matched and even when I feel weighted one way or the other (or the same) this does not override the clear presentation difference i am hearing. I will listen again and use the app I have on my phone that measures decibels to try and match a specific passage. I believe it would probably be best to match for vocal pieces rather than excerpts with strong dynamics.

I'm well aware and a believer in the virtues of blind/double-blind testing and have done quite a lot recently to see at what point I could no longer differentiate between raw/lossless and compressed files (I scored highly on reliably being able to differentiate) and also to identify to what level of precision I could identify pitch differences; etc. I was dealing with far finer differences in almost all those tests than the very discernible difference I can hear here. But, for the sake of trying to be as scientific as possible, I will ask my son to swap the DACS (or not swap them) and (a) see if I can reliably tell (a) if swapped and (b) which DAC was in use each time.
 
OP
Y

yabadaba

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2019
Messages
17
Likes
11
Are you comparing both with rca output?
Yes. The only change I am making is to switch DAC and then tweak volume level. With my amp at the same setting the D10 sounds a tad louder, but that might just be certain frequencies that I already suspect are emphasized (in comparison to the D70). Raising the volume when the D70 is connected doesn't change the presentation difference that I have already identified...but of course it's louder overall.
 

Ratatoskr

Active Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2018
Messages
125
Likes
83
In the final analysis this is a hobby and you should listen to the gear with the sound signature that you like. Daniel von Recklinghausen famously said:
If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad; if it measures bad and sounds good, you have measured the wrong thing
 
OP
Y

yabadaba

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2019
Messages
17
Likes
11
In the final analysis this is a hobby and you should listen to the gear with the sound signature that you like. Daniel von Recklinghausen famously said:
Well, yes I agree in the main, but in this example I actually like aspects of both presentations....and I also enjoy making comparisons and learning about how these audible differences come about. I've always loved comparing things...audio, video, automotive, whatever!
 
Last edited:

KozmoNaut

Active Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2019
Messages
299
Likes
633
Have you measured the output, for instance an RMAA test or pink noise and analyzed in a program like Audacity?
 

jasonq997

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 4, 2018
Messages
145
Likes
220
The d70 has akm filter settings right? I am not sure whether these make a big difference but it is worth mentioning.
 

daftcombo

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 5, 2019
Messages
3,687
Likes
4,068
Do you use the same drivers for both? ASIO, WASAPI?...
 
OP
Y

yabadaba

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2019
Messages
17
Likes
11
Have you measured the output, for instance an RMAA test or pink noise and analyzed in a program like Audacity?
Hi, no I haven't, but that would be interesting to try....though would first need to figure out how/the best way to do this.
 

majingotan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Messages
1,511
Likes
1,781
Location
Laguna, Philippines
DBT volume matched within 0.5dB on both you and the person changing the inputs is the only way to prove the subjective differences that you’re hearing
 
OP
Y

yabadaba

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2019
Messages
17
Likes
11
The d70 has akm filter settings right? I am not sure whether these make a big difference but it is worth mentioning.
Yes, I've experimented with these but can't identify a clear difference between them so have left on the default - filter 3.
 
OP
Y

yabadaba

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2019
Messages
17
Likes
11
Do you use the same drivers for both? ASIO, WASAPI?...
Both have been connected to a Raspberry Pi 4, running Volumio. Not sure what protocol that uses behind the scenes but I'm assuming it's a constant, regardless.
 

VintageFlanker

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 20, 2018
Messages
4,943
Likes
19,698
Location
Paris
Well,

I'm not sure why everyone is so focused on level-matching, while output voltage is a pretty basic data for gear being measured here (unless our host found otherwise).

So, according to @amirm:

- D70 using RCA, 0db volume: 2.080V
- D10: 2.110V

So there is no need for level-match here.

That being said: Next step, you need to do your listening blind.
 

daftcombo

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 5, 2019
Messages
3,687
Likes
4,068

MediumRare

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 17, 2019
Messages
1,949
Likes
2,275
Location
Chicago
Best thing is to run REW and see if there is any difference in FR or distortion. Should be pretty easy. You don't have to level match for that, either. It will of course reflect your speakers and room, but then, that is what you are hearing as well.
 

L5730

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Oct 6, 2018
Messages
669
Likes
436
Location
East of England
An output voltage difference of 0.03v makes them roughly 0.12 dB different in level.
Whilst this is small, and it certainly won't sound like a difference in volume/loudness, it could have some impact in how the sound is perceived. From my experience the louder one usually sounds more "detailed", "punchy", "weightier", "bassy" etc. whilst the quieter sounds more "polite", "soft", "weak" etc.
That said, my findings are with 0.25 dB to 0.5 dB changes. Below 0.2 dB generally most people don't notice anything and those that do experience only a very subtle change. 0.12 dB is going to really hard to notice.

It would be really nice if you had a high quality ADC to capture the output of each device and then analyse the results. We don't all have the need for one though, so no worries.
 
Top Bottom