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Ciúnas Audio ISO DAC Teardown and Failed Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
I honestly believe that any sonic differences that take real concentration and trained listening to discern (assuming they can be discerned) are irrelevant in the context of using audio equipment just to enjoy listening to music.
I just drove it...and liked it. Most people don't look under the hood. With my Mdac I couldn't get the bonnet up.
zenmastering
Member
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2018
- Messages
- 41
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- 51
From the teardown:
"One of the tenants of "high-end" audio is heroic attempt at keeping noise and interference low. "
I think you meant "One of the tenets of "high-end" audio is a heroic attempt at keeping noise and interference low."
"One of the tenants of "high-end" audio is heroic attempt at keeping noise and interference low. "
I think you meant "One of the tenets of "high-end" audio is a heroic attempt at keeping noise and interference low."
KxDx
Senior Member
If someone is going to hand solder and run so many wires, I'd rather it be in an airbox. Heck, make it wide with a machined face and it would be "audiophile" enough to sell for $2000.
captain paranoia
Active Member
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2018
- Messages
- 293
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- 218
Finally...
As for those 'products'. Oh. Dear. Lord. Whoever made them has absolutely no clue.
Well, well, well, well....................isn't this interesting. Someone else has been subjected to the cretin that goes by the name of JKeny.
OK, this is not my forum, and I don't want to get booted on my first post, but all of the experiences we had to deal with him were most unpleasant. The individual in question would take things we have stated, and due to his lack of knowledge and understanding, would post these subjects, taken out of context, on every forum he could find. And then go "hey, these guys said this.............and...blah, blah, blah............and what do you think?"
Of course, folks would reply "No, that make no sense. Those guys must be idiots." Can you imagine how much negative attention was directed our way?
As if that is not bad enough, he would argue, for months, if not years, with one of our resident troublemakers, and ask repeatedly. "well, that can't work...........I mean how can it work?...............you can't even explain how it works!" Only to be told by numerous other forum members that no, it does work and it was explained sufficiently to understand how it does work, so you seem to be the problem since you keep asking the same question over and over, even after we have also taken the time to explain it to you."
One day, after hearing one of our guys complaining about this guy (again!), I made the prescient remark "Watch, this clown will start his own audio company some day and will probably do this very thing that he claims does not work."
Not only was I correct (ok, it took several more years), that he started his own "audio company", he started off using "our" idea (it is actually a rather mundane trick every RF engineer in the world knows) in his first "product" (cough, cough), and then to add insult to injury, he went as far as turning this "trick" into the form of an "accessory" that he sold.
That is the tip of the iceberg. He has actually done more harm than that.
So, I would like to take the time to salute the founder of this site for subjecting themselves to having to delve into the cesspool this person creates, and alerting the audio community to avoid anything that has been touched by this fraud who pretends to be a creator and designer of audio equipment.
I think that about sums up my thoughts on the subject. Well, at least the ones that hopefully will not get me banned. Trust me........................the rest most certainly would.
OK, this is not my forum, and I don't want to get booted on my first post, but all of the experiences we had to deal with him were most unpleasant. The individual in question would take things we have stated, and due to his lack of knowledge and understanding, would post these subjects, taken out of context, on every forum he could find. And then go "hey, these guys said this.............and...blah, blah, blah............and what do you think?"
Of course, folks would reply "No, that make no sense. Those guys must be idiots." Can you imagine how much negative attention was directed our way?
As if that is not bad enough, he would argue, for months, if not years, with one of our resident troublemakers, and ask repeatedly. "well, that can't work...........I mean how can it work?...............you can't even explain how it works!" Only to be told by numerous other forum members that no, it does work and it was explained sufficiently to understand how it does work, so you seem to be the problem since you keep asking the same question over and over, even after we have also taken the time to explain it to you."
One day, after hearing one of our guys complaining about this guy (again!), I made the prescient remark "Watch, this clown will start his own audio company some day and will probably do this very thing that he claims does not work."
Not only was I correct (ok, it took several more years), that he started his own "audio company", he started off using "our" idea (it is actually a rather mundane trick every RF engineer in the world knows) in his first "product" (cough, cough), and then to add insult to injury, he went as far as turning this "trick" into the form of an "accessory" that he sold.
That is the tip of the iceberg. He has actually done more harm than that.
So, I would like to take the time to salute the founder of this site for subjecting themselves to having to delve into the cesspool this person creates, and alerting the audio community to avoid anything that has been touched by this fraud who pretends to be a creator and designer of audio equipment.
I think that about sums up my thoughts on the subject. Well, at least the ones that hopefully will not get me banned. Trust me........................the rest most certainly would.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #168
It does not.
I know John too well to do that. Welcome to the forum.
I have no clue who this Ciunas Audio guy is or ar-T audio and have no strong opinions about either of them. I'm of course not impressed by the teardown where the inside does look messy and (according to Amir) possibly hazardous.
However what we have here in terms of measurements is none. This is a second hand unit of unkown history and handling which is not working. That's the weakness of examining second hand units - when they are broken, who knows what could have happened? any number of reasons. Now if a brand new unit turns up broken that can speak to quality of manufacture etc. Much more useful imo. It would be nice to obtain a brand new unit from the manufacturer to actually see how it performs.
It is distasteful to see clear namecalling and allegations of wrongdoing being allowed by the ar_T manufacturer against the Ciunas manufacturer on ASR.
@ar-t , calls Ciunas (another) manufacturer a cretin in his second sentence, he associates Ciunas with a cesspool, and accuses Ciunas of fraud and apparently being a clown all on the first post. Is this something that can happen now? If ASR doesn't like them, just free pass on the name calling ?
I ask that we keep the squabbles. namecalling, and whatever is happening on other forums out of this forum, please.
Last edited:
tw99
Senior Member
Agreed on the name calling, it's not necessary and just lowers the tone on here.
digicidal
Major Contributor
It's one of my favorites! Like every track on it, but probably Pedestrian Wolves or War Again would be the "five star tracks" IMO. You made me listen to it again... so thanks!
You're welcome.
I bought it from the bargain bin at Circuit City or Best Buy about 1998 or so. One of the better $1 cds from that source.
The cover looked interesting, I'm not sure I went past that (for the price). Might have recognized Elfman's name then, or maybe not.
Shadrach
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2019
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There are probab
It is apparent that you have issues with this person but I'm a bit disappointed that this post has been allowed to stand. It's straightforward trolling imo.
There are probably hundreds of JKenys in the audiophile world. Some of the now revered audiophile cowboys probably started out in just this fashion. When one of them makes a badly built and poor performing product, it often gets forgiven with the excuse that they were trying to produce a product that would stand out from the rest by 'tuning'. There are also plenty of other so called designers who it seems have people skill problems.
It is apparent that you have issues with this person but I'm a bit disappointed that this post has been allowed to stand. It's straightforward trolling imo.
I don't believe it serves anyone particularly well , we should aspire to better even if other folks/places don't.
Let's put it this way guys:
If he lived in the USA, he would find himself dragged into court, defending against libel, slander, tortious interference, and whatever else we could make stick.
As for "audio cowboys", yes, there are tons of them. Some just copy datasheets (actually, pretty much every member of J.A. Pan, Inc. does the same thing, which is why every Japanese CD player has a '5532 for the I/V................I know this for a fact, maybe someday I will explain), and churn out a product. I wouldn't buy any of those products, but as we say "it is a free country". Some may actually be decent, and/or a reasonable "budget" product.
There are others who buy assembled pieces, kludge them together, more times than not, with slap-hazard methods, that look like an accident waiting to happen. How they stay in business is beyond my understanding. In many of those cases, I would not only buy one, but I would strongly advise everyone to also avoid them. More times than not, the folks behind them are not only clueless as to their incompetence, but are nasty people to deal with. They need to be called out, and persuaded to stick to their daytime job.
Yes, my tone was probably below the level of most forums, but perhaps, in context of the dreck "they" produce, it needs to be said. OK, someone may claim "well, someone may have done that to a finished product, and that is what you got, so it is not the real deal."
OK, maybe. It happens. Rarely, but it happens. In this case, no, I am surprised it looks that good. Remember, we have a long and unsavory history with this alleged designer-person, so I am certain that is the level of his abilities.
So, since he has slagged us, numerous times, over many years, only because he is not capable of understanding basic concepts, well, it is only fair turnabout to highlight his abilities. If you put your name on it, you should be proud of it. If he isn't proud of it, or willing to accept the consequences of the entire world seeing what a disaster the guts are, then he should have not undertaken the venture. It is his work, he needs to acknowledge it, and not weasel about that this one shouldn't be held up to scrutiny. Seems like he can not accept the spotlight turned on him, when he is more than deserving.
After all the grief he has directed our way (possibly inadvertently, but probably not), this is karma coming around his way. I hope he enjoys it.
If he lived in the USA, he would find himself dragged into court, defending against libel, slander, tortious interference, and whatever else we could make stick.
As for "audio cowboys", yes, there are tons of them. Some just copy datasheets (actually, pretty much every member of J.A. Pan, Inc. does the same thing, which is why every Japanese CD player has a '5532 for the I/V................I know this for a fact, maybe someday I will explain), and churn out a product. I wouldn't buy any of those products, but as we say "it is a free country". Some may actually be decent, and/or a reasonable "budget" product.
There are others who buy assembled pieces, kludge them together, more times than not, with slap-hazard methods, that look like an accident waiting to happen. How they stay in business is beyond my understanding. In many of those cases, I would not only buy one, but I would strongly advise everyone to also avoid them. More times than not, the folks behind them are not only clueless as to their incompetence, but are nasty people to deal with. They need to be called out, and persuaded to stick to their daytime job.
Yes, my tone was probably below the level of most forums, but perhaps, in context of the dreck "they" produce, it needs to be said. OK, someone may claim "well, someone may have done that to a finished product, and that is what you got, so it is not the real deal."
OK, maybe. It happens. Rarely, but it happens. In this case, no, I am surprised it looks that good. Remember, we have a long and unsavory history with this alleged designer-person, so I am certain that is the level of his abilities.
So, since he has slagged us, numerous times, over many years, only because he is not capable of understanding basic concepts, well, it is only fair turnabout to highlight his abilities. If you put your name on it, you should be proud of it. If he isn't proud of it, or willing to accept the consequences of the entire world seeing what a disaster the guts are, then he should have not undertaken the venture. It is his work, he needs to acknowledge it, and not weasel about that this one shouldn't be held up to scrutiny. Seems like he can not accept the spotlight turned on him, when he is more than deserving.
After all the grief he has directed our way (possibly inadvertently, but probably not), this is karma coming around his way. I hope he enjoys it.
One further thought on "audio cowboys".
Yes, some of the guys y'all like started out that way. Some have grown into legit, and profitable businesses. They are the exception.
Some background..............
Back in the day (so speak) Company A would pay us to acquire a competing product from Company B. We would tear into one, figure out everything we could about it. Finding out what they did "right", what they did "wrong", make more measurements than one would think possible, and listen to it. And then write a report, all for a nice "consulting fee". (How can you not like a job like that?)
So, we have seen a lot more gear than most folks around, and in detail few would find interesting. And yes, when it came to "audio cowboys", well there were several instances where they had a nice looking box, professionally made PCBs, and acceptable build quality, yet the "audio cowboy" fingerprint was all over it.
Here is one such example. Oddly enough, the punchline to this twisted tale is that the founder was eventually forced out, by the investors he had brought in, and sold to one of the "big boys", for a nice profit. At which point, his wife, who had funded his hobby, no longer was willing to fund another, and the poor sod faded into obscurity.
OK..............the product in question..............
A bog-standard Philips-based CDP, that they turned into a "transport". Pretty much involved putting it in a different box (with their name of course), and sticking a 75R resistor in series with the SPDIF output, of the filter chip. And calling that the "digital output".
So, what is wrong with that, you may ask.
Lots.
First, the output is supposed to be 0.5 V, p-p, when terminated with 75R. (That is something that a measurement would show. If anyone had actually performed one in the numerous reviews of this log.) So, it would obviously be 2.5 V p-p, with DC offset.
Only not quite 2.5 V (this was in the days of 5 V logic, early HC family stuff), since the output impedance was not 75R. What was it, you may ask? Closer to 93R. How did we know? Well, one we measured it. And two, we knew the output impedance of that logic family was probably in the 25-28R range.
So, wrong voltage, wrong impedance, and DC offset. What else could they do wrong?
More!
So, "audio cowboy" despite not having an in-depth knowledge of how this stuff works, really could hear. Which was how he started his "audio cowboy company", mucking up existing products, and charging the usual gullible audiophooles money to perform said tweaks. (I can not repeat the words used to describe him, by the manufacturers who had their products "enhanced" by his touch. So, yes, many of my friends and associates are not fans of these guys.)
He parlayed his wrong output impedance into making an accompanying cable, for this transport. And guess what........................yeah, you got it................it wasn't 75 ohms, like every other cable was. (Well, maybe not every. There was another "audio cowboy", who for a brief period of time, was one of our consulting customers. He sold a cable that was 50R, because he claimed the folks he used previous to dealing with us measured it, and verified it was 75R. Too bad it was made by an antenna company, and ALL of their cables were clearly stated as 50R. Why would the guys he paid money to lie to him? Especially when he could have looked up the specs in the catalog. Which he did not know how to obtain. So how did he find that cable? He never could explain. We dropped him, and walked away without trying to collect the outstanding balance. He obviously needed it more than we did. I think he is still around, somewhere.)
OK, back to the story.
With a TX source that was close to 93R, what do you think kind of cable he found?
YES! One that is 93R! (Yes, they do make them.)
On top of that, he managed to find some obscure ham radio connector (also ironically 93R), and used those parts to make an "audiophile" digital cable.
Which was then reviewed by one of his good buddies. Who raved about it.
Next thing that you know...................all of his dealers had this transport/cable pair. And when you put a 75R cable in the chain, it sounded like crap.
Any wonder why? More than one type of measurement would have shown why. But, the "big boy" reviewers know nothing about any of this RF stuff, and since anything audio only needs to be measured like audio, no one knew what was going on.
Eventually, someone who sold DACs and/or cables called us up, and enlisted our services.
Spent more time taking off the lid than it did to know what the problems were.
"Audio cowboy", indeed. Probably a nice guy. Had a decent pair of ears. Didn't build anything that would probably catch fire. Graduated to making new products, in shiny metal boxes, many of which turned out to be good products. (Probably designed by a hired gun. You would be surprised how many of the "big boys" pay folks I know to design their products)
Now compare that to the fire hazard this thread is about. No, it is obvious someone hasn't learned anything in the last 20 years or so. Yes, my advice is to strongly avoid anything he churns out.
Yes, some of the guys y'all like started out that way. Some have grown into legit, and profitable businesses. They are the exception.
Some background..............
Back in the day (so speak) Company A would pay us to acquire a competing product from Company B. We would tear into one, figure out everything we could about it. Finding out what they did "right", what they did "wrong", make more measurements than one would think possible, and listen to it. And then write a report, all for a nice "consulting fee". (How can you not like a job like that?)
So, we have seen a lot more gear than most folks around, and in detail few would find interesting. And yes, when it came to "audio cowboys", well there were several instances where they had a nice looking box, professionally made PCBs, and acceptable build quality, yet the "audio cowboy" fingerprint was all over it.
Here is one such example. Oddly enough, the punchline to this twisted tale is that the founder was eventually forced out, by the investors he had brought in, and sold to one of the "big boys", for a nice profit. At which point, his wife, who had funded his hobby, no longer was willing to fund another, and the poor sod faded into obscurity.
OK..............the product in question..............
A bog-standard Philips-based CDP, that they turned into a "transport". Pretty much involved putting it in a different box (with their name of course), and sticking a 75R resistor in series with the SPDIF output, of the filter chip. And calling that the "digital output".
So, what is wrong with that, you may ask.
Lots.
First, the output is supposed to be 0.5 V, p-p, when terminated with 75R. (That is something that a measurement would show. If anyone had actually performed one in the numerous reviews of this log.) So, it would obviously be 2.5 V p-p, with DC offset.
Only not quite 2.5 V (this was in the days of 5 V logic, early HC family stuff), since the output impedance was not 75R. What was it, you may ask? Closer to 93R. How did we know? Well, one we measured it. And two, we knew the output impedance of that logic family was probably in the 25-28R range.
So, wrong voltage, wrong impedance, and DC offset. What else could they do wrong?
More!
So, "audio cowboy" despite not having an in-depth knowledge of how this stuff works, really could hear. Which was how he started his "audio cowboy company", mucking up existing products, and charging the usual gullible audiophooles money to perform said tweaks. (I can not repeat the words used to describe him, by the manufacturers who had their products "enhanced" by his touch. So, yes, many of my friends and associates are not fans of these guys.)
He parlayed his wrong output impedance into making an accompanying cable, for this transport. And guess what........................yeah, you got it................it wasn't 75 ohms, like every other cable was. (Well, maybe not every. There was another "audio cowboy", who for a brief period of time, was one of our consulting customers. He sold a cable that was 50R, because he claimed the folks he used previous to dealing with us measured it, and verified it was 75R. Too bad it was made by an antenna company, and ALL of their cables were clearly stated as 50R. Why would the guys he paid money to lie to him? Especially when he could have looked up the specs in the catalog. Which he did not know how to obtain. So how did he find that cable? He never could explain. We dropped him, and walked away without trying to collect the outstanding balance. He obviously needed it more than we did. I think he is still around, somewhere.)
OK, back to the story.
With a TX source that was close to 93R, what do you think kind of cable he found?
YES! One that is 93R! (Yes, they do make them.)
On top of that, he managed to find some obscure ham radio connector (also ironically 93R), and used those parts to make an "audiophile" digital cable.
Which was then reviewed by one of his good buddies. Who raved about it.
Next thing that you know...................all of his dealers had this transport/cable pair. And when you put a 75R cable in the chain, it sounded like crap.
Any wonder why? More than one type of measurement would have shown why. But, the "big boy" reviewers know nothing about any of this RF stuff, and since anything audio only needs to be measured like audio, no one knew what was going on.
Eventually, someone who sold DACs and/or cables called us up, and enlisted our services.
Spent more time taking off the lid than it did to know what the problems were.
"Audio cowboy", indeed. Probably a nice guy. Had a decent pair of ears. Didn't build anything that would probably catch fire. Graduated to making new products, in shiny metal boxes, many of which turned out to be good products. (Probably designed by a hired gun. You would be surprised how many of the "big boys" pay folks I know to design their products)
Now compare that to the fire hazard this thread is about. No, it is obvious someone hasn't learned anything in the last 20 years or so. Yes, my advice is to strongly avoid anything he churns out.
This is very bitter posting
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