Shootout - Superb Measuring cheap DAC against hi-end DAC - measuring tool - the "ears"

[Xulonn]

A proper system with educated ears can easily tell the difference between high-end DAC and cheap dac.

Welcome to ASR (Audio Science Review). Although most of the regulars here embrace the subjective pleasures of listening to music and enjoying our audio systems, we will challenge any claims that run counter to known science.

Anyone who has studied audio from the perspective of science knows that your claim is not true unless the following is included.

...but only when you know in advance what you are listening to, or one of the DACs in faulty in design or construction.

I am not aware of any instances of scientific, double blind testing that has verified your claim.

Therefore, the onus is on you to provide independently verifiable evidence to support your claim. That is how science works.

 

[BDWoody]

A proper system with educated ears can easily tell the difference between high-end DAC and cheap dac.

Uh huh.
Willing to put up any meaningful $$ to back that up?

 

[PierreV]

A proper system with educated ears can easily tell the difference between high-end DAC and cheap dac.

Yes, my system can tell. My ears not so much. I guess I need better interconnects or maybe an audiophile network switch...

 

[Frank Dernie]

Come on! How many Hi-Fi components are gonna be burned here? Support furniture - DACs - Amps (Alan Shaw's all competent amps sound the same) - so what does that leave - the speakers and only the speakers!

Are we all on the same page here on ASR - are we generally all in agreement perhaps that it's only really the speakers that matter if you shove some competent (not expensive or esoteric) gear behind them? Is that what it's come to?

Pretty well, yes.
I would add the room definitely and power amps sometimes, since some power amps, particularly valve ones with inexpensive transformers, have audible levels of distortion and some amps which are fine into a simple resistive test load struggle into the complex reactive load of a loudspeaker - some of which are worse than others.
Some kit is better engineered than others so worth checking measurements, but selection on reliability, functionality, styling and value for money is the best way, not any imagined SQ differences marketed at you.
It started decades ago here in the UK when Linn announced that the only way to evaluate kit was in single speaker demos, removing at a stroke the ability to do valid and proper comparisons and leaving the way open to manipulation of customers (IMHO).

 

[snapcrackle]

The reason I emphasised the necessity for good support furniture earlier was my experience of big sound changes by using different supports in my home - and that's just under a DAC - perhaps the DAC is sensitive to placement but it at least means to me that laying the underlying foundations is important - in my case anyway. So whether you believe in the support platforms or not - I would personally play on the safe side and bring along decent furniture for the competing DACs to sit on.

DACs do sound incredibly different - for example, the differences between these three examples is significant but that could be because perhaps they measure differently - I really don't know: 1. 1990's Arcam Black Box (yeah I know, it's old tech) 2. Metrum Octave DAC v2, 3. Starting Point Systems DAC3.

I appreciate all three DACs above are ladder DACs, so this could explain the differences between them.

Whatever I hear doesn't matter - it would still be interesting to evaluate as suggested at the start of this thread.

 

[VintageFlanker]

First, welcome to ASR.

Few things, then:

you need a high end speakers system which has high resolving power to tell the difference between well measured cheap dac and high end.

So approximate that it doesn't mean anything.

you need to practice the listening skill from live music, to learn what real instruments sound like in real life. What a live concerto sounds like, what a live symphony sounds like.

I go out to see concerts for that... But maybe a high end system should sound better than real life? Also, why it should be related to classical music only?!

If you are using headphones, you can't get the 3D sound stage (image)

Soundstage and image are not the same thing. Then, headphones have advantage of not being room dependant.


Ps: Seriously folks, are we under a subjectivists attack?

 

[PierreV]

DACs do sound incredibly different - for example, the differences between these three examples is significant but that could be because perhaps they measure differently - I really don't know: 1. 1990's Arcam Black Box (yeah I know, it's old tech) 2. Metrum Octave DAC v2, 3. Starting Point Systems DAC3.
I appreciate all three DACs above are ladder DACs, so this could explain the differences between them.

I think no one disputes that they would sound different. And I do also have older stuff that does sound different. But most well-designed recent stuff sound the same to me. On my main system, I can switch between 3 different DACs instantly (the Linn one, the KTB and a third one which varies from week to week according to my mood) and I can't reliably hear a difference. The argument that you should start with a perfectly transparent device and then add eventual equalization to taste is bulletproof imho.

And, at SPLs that are compatible (ie do not stress) the amplifiers, it is very hard to tell the differences between, say, a cheap yamaha receiver and a high-end amplifier. It is much harder to test in real time, obviously, so my confidence level is not as near certainty than it is with recent DACs, but still... The speakers don't have a nervous breakdown when they are connected to a plebeian amplifier. If you want a room-filling sound or the speakers are harder to drive, that is another story of course.

 

[Xulonn]

Ps: Seriously folks, are we under a subjectivists attack?

Yes - and such periodic invasions will occur as long as ASR is up, running and open for anyone to drop by and post their thoughts and feelings.

I learned my most successful subjectivist-countering technique from this video...

 

[M00ndancer]

ome on! How many Hi-Fi components are gonna be burned here? Support furniture - DACs - Amps (Alan Shaw's all competent amps sound the same) - so what does that leave - the speakers and only the speakers!

Unless the DAC, AMP, furniture measure horrendous, there are actually two things that really matter: Speakers and room or headphone and ear shapes.

Are we all on the same page here on ASR - are we generally all in agreement perhaps that it's only really the speakers that matter if you shove some competent (not expensive or esoteric) gear behind them? Is that what it's come to?

You have found enlightenment. Go in peace.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Yes - and such periodic invasions will occur as long as ASR is up, running and open for anyone to drop by and post their thoughts and feelings

Bringing education to all is the point of ASR. I see absolutely no issue to see the community growing and a lot of new people in search of learning.

What bothers me, however, is potential trolling from people who have no attention to learn or teach anything but to spread subjective BS around.

 

[filo97s]

here I am... I tested a Teac UD-503 (ex flagship, 1000 USD price tag) against a FiiO X3 MK III used as a dac and a JDS Atom... not a single slight difference, with an HiFiman HE-560 so not a cheap headphone. The thing that shocked me most was when I connected the Atom directly to the integrated soundcard of my PC, based on a Rampage IV Black Edition motherboard. Apart from a faint background noise, the difference is really really damn subtle, almost inexistent.
I then tried to plug the HiFiman directly to the PC and here there was a huge difference due to different amplification, but regarding the DAC, actually a lot can be made with less than 100 USD, and a ultra high end system can be composed with a budget under 200 USD.
So yes, I definitely agree with measures and add also that past a certain SINAD, no differences can be heard. Spend most of your money in headphones and speakers, is all that matters.

 

[snapcrackle]

OK some still think I am subjectively attacking this site and I am not.

Look - perhaps it's best that I go my own way on this one and find out for myself properly. I have a proven well measured DAC in my arsenal - the Musical Fidelity V90 according to scientific measurements on this forum - what I need now is the cheapest possible DAC that scientifically measures well here and put it up againt the V90 plus other DACs I have. If the el-cheapo well measured DAC sounds just as good then - boom - I can go in peace as someone flippantly said here earlier. If however it sound shite then .... that's another story.

Can someone suggest something as low as they can price wise from the the well measured DAC ASR camp, then I can spend my pennies and find out for myself. My emphasis here on super cheap here - as long as it measures perfectly. I really do want to test a fine measuring DAC for peanuts.

I will use the SMPS it comes with.

 

[Thomas savage]

You no doubt feel better with longer listening, seem to gain confidence. Its been tested, and shorter is better. Lots better. The difference in discernment for even 30 seconds vs shorter is quite large.

Longer equals more opportunity to lead one's self to fantastic conclusions .

Festering imagination.

 

[Thomas savage]

OK some still think I am subjectively attacking this site and I am not.

Look - perhaps it's best that I go my own way on this one and find out for myself properly. I have a proven well measured DAC in my arsenal - the Musical Fidelity V90 according to scientific measurements on this forum - what I need now is the cheapest possible DAC that scientifically measures well here and put it up againt the V90 plus other DACs I have. If the el-cheapo well measured DAC sounds just as good then - boom - I can go in peace as someone flippantly said here earlier. If however it sound shite then .... that's another story.

Can someone suggest something as low as they can price wise from the the well measured DAC ASR camp, then I can spend my pennies and find out for myself. My emphasis here on super cheap here - as long as it measures perfectly. I really do want to test a fine measuring DAC for peanuts.

I will use the SMPS it comes with.

Don't worry , the natives can be on red alert for folks winding them up.

Your interest is appreciated and I hope you can setup a level matched test.

Thanks for popping by and sharing your thoughts .

 

[VintageFlanker]

What bothers me, however, is potential trolling from people who have no attention to learn or teach anything but to spread subjective BS around.

OK some still think I am subjectively attacking this site and I am not.

I wasn't talking about you especially (Though I wasn't a big fan of your first post, to be honest). Apologies.

Then, I widely support your project of proper listening test! I'm personally a bit far, but hope some folks from UK may bring you some help.

 

[M00ndancer]

Can someone suggest something as low as they can price wise from the the well measured DAC ASR camp, then I can spend my pennies and find out for myself. My emphasis here on super cheap here - as long as it measures perfectly. I really do want to test a fine measuring DAC for peanuts.

May I suggest: The Khadas tone board. Should be good enough to be totally transparent.

 

[Xulonn]

May I suggest: The Khadas tone board. Should be good enough to be totally transparent.

Nice looking case from Audiophonics (France)

 

[FrantzM]

<snip>

Are we all on the same page here on ASR - are we generally all in agreement perhaps that it's only really the speakers that matter if you shove some competent (not expensive or esoteric) gear behind them? Is that what it's come to?

YES!!!!

 

[Ceburaska]

OK some still think I am subjectively attacking this site and I am not.

Look - perhaps it's best that I go my own way on this one and find out for myself properly. I have a proven well measured DAC in my arsenal - the Musical Fidelity V90 according to scientific measurements on this forum - what I need now is the cheapest possible DAC that scientifically measures well here and put it up againt the V90 plus other DACs I have. If the el-cheapo well measured DAC sounds just as good then - boom - I can go in peace as someone flippantly said here earlier. If however it sound shite then .... that's another story.

Can someone suggest something as low as they can price wise from the the well measured DAC ASR camp, then I can spend my pennies and find out for myself. My emphasis here on super cheap here - as long as it measures perfectly. I really do want to test a fine measuring DAC for peanuts.

I will use the SMPS it comes with.

Depending on your source you could use one of a number of Topping products, D10, D30 or DX3. I’ve got the latter.
I've replaced >1k DACs with Topping’s £100 or less DACs. (I bought secondhand, new prices can be a bit higher).
Good luck on your journey!

 

[snapcrackle]

Depending on your source you could use one of a number of Topping products, D10, D30 or DX3. I’ve got the latter.
I've replaced >1k DACs with Topping’s £100 or less DACs. (I bought secondhand, new prices can be a bit higher).
Good luck on your journey!

I think I will wait for a second hand Topping ... thanks for the suggestions.