Shootout - Superb Measuring cheap DAC against hi-end DAC - measuring tool - the "ears"

[Jinjuku]

audiophile engineers

Didn't know that was something you could go to University for.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I agree - one of the best sounds of the show for sure. Just find 75,000 Euros and you can have a pair! But the price includes DSP, amplification, DAC, the speakers of course - so it's a complete HiFi - just add a music source. Bargain!!

Or you could buy a Topping DAC - NAD amplifier - plus a good pair of passive speakers and save a fortune

Well no, that wouldn't get you anywhere near!
The least expensive equivalent, IMHO, which won't go as loud and doesn't look as nice to me would be the Dutch & Dutch 8C, around £10k I think and next the Kii with BXT which will probably have the same dynamic range at around £25k.
A plethora of cheap good DACs are readily available, yes, pretty good high powered amps using class D modules are pretty reasonable compared to similarly powered conventional amps these days, yes, but DSP corrected speakers are very rare and passive speakers with that sort of bandwidth and dynamic range are rare too, and expensive.
So whilst 75k is huge and probably over priced a lot of that will be the manufacturing cost of the enclosures which as an engineer I am amazed by which may or may not be a big contributor to the sound (It probably is IME) but nobody else cheaper than Magico and YG gets anywhere near.
FWIW about 20 years ago our machine shop costed a Goldmund preamp enclosure for a guy who wanted to try going into business in small batch production of high end hifi in a beautifully made enclosure (most are a painted folded steel box with fancy(ish) faceplate) and it came to £7500 per enclosure. Probably less today with cheaper CNC machining and contributing little, unless you believe in their mechanical grounding evacuating vibration, to the sound, unlike the speaker cabinet.

 

[Alexanderc]

A couple of questions and a short story….

Couldn’t speaker footers make a difference in the sound? I can imagine that the vibrations of the enclosure cold be altered causing either more or less interference with the sound waves that could be measurable. Also, couldn’t the change in speaker height, small though it would be, change the way the speaker interacts with the room?

Now the story: I have a bottom of the line Onkyo CD player that I used to have on a bookshelf. The transformer (I assume) hummed so loudly that I could easily hear it from my listening chair. When I put my ear up to it the sound wasn’t so loud, but when I put my ear to the shelf under it the sound was much louder. That shelf apparently had a resonant frequency that amplified the hum. I made myself a nice DIY shelf out of four pieces of butcher block and four 36 inch threaded rods. It probably weighs 180 lbs. and cost less than $200 for all the hardware (I made the butcher blocks with some help from a friend). The hum is now virtually inaudible from a distance. As an added benefit my footfalls are less apparent when I listen to records now too. The amplifier sounds the same though. Oh well, can’t win ‘em all.

 

[Frank Dernie]

A couple of questions and a short story….

Couldn’t speaker footers make a difference in the sound? I can imagine that the vibrations of the enclosure cold be altered causing either more or less interference with the sound waves that could be measurable. Also, couldn’t the change in speaker height, small though it would be, change the way the speaker interacts with the room?

Now the story: I have a bottom of the line Onkyo CD player that I used to have on a bookshelf. The transformer (I assume) hummed so loudly that I could easily hear it from my listening chair. When I put my ear up to it the sound wasn’t so loud, but when I put my ear to the shelf under it the sound was much louder. That shelf apparently had a resonant frequency that amplified the hum. I made myself a nice DIY shelf out of four pieces of butcher block and four 36 inch threaded rods. It probably weighs 180 lbs. and cost less than $200 for all the hardware (I made the butcher blocks with some help from a friend). The hum is now virtually inaudible from a distance. As an added benefit my footfalls are less apparent when I listen to records now too. The amplifier sounds the same though. Oh well, can’t win ‘em all.

Certainly anything moving the speaker and coupling/decoupling it from the floor can make a difference, particularly big with a suspended floor.
Transformer hum may be influenced by a big enough support but at the price maybe a better unit with a non-humming transformer would be better value for money.
Some electric components are microphonic, but not solid state electronics, mainly valve stuff. Record players pick up environment borne vibration and noise and add it to the cartridge output. This adds a bit of extra reverb which I quite like but a properly engineered turntable should have isolation built in to reduce it. High gain valve kit may well pick up vibration and add to the sound.
Pretty well everything else isn't affected so any gain heard will be imagined or placebo effect, particularly if the support is expensive.

 

[MediumRare]

A couple of questions and a short story….

Couldn’t speaker footers make a difference in the sound? I can imagine that the vibrations of the enclosure cold be altered causing either more or less interference with the sound waves that could be measurable. Also, couldn’t the change in speaker height, small though it would be, change the way the speaker interacts with the room?

Yes, both those could certainly affect the sound. Along with the resonance and reflectance changes @Frank Dernie mentioned, changing the height of the speaker relative to listening position could affect the frequency response, depending on the dispersion pattern of the speakers. Some have a very tight range, others broader, so it's very hard to say without knowing the specifics. Reflections from windows could also change depending on the relative heights.

 

[JeffS7444]

I haven't got my cheap DAC yet - I did buy some high quality support furniture and will start my auditioning once I have the new rack built. I know some folks don't agree with purpose built Hi-Fi racks (hence the wobbly chair video linked earlier) - not me - I'm not taking any chances after hearing a difference a mere platform can make in my setup ...

I thought this audio site's headline was interesting: https://audiosector.com/ - The purpose of audio is the communication of the original musical inspiration rather than simply obtaining impressive measurement results.

Benchmark DAC2 HGC versus Objective DAC (original NWAVGUY version) sound pretty much the same to me, but I prefer using the former because it has a lot more i/o options plus a volume control whereas Objective DAC is USB-only. $29 Behringer UCA202 isn't bad either and provides an ADC to boot.

As for the Audiosector quote, I don't quite agree: Home hifi can only reproduce what's on the recording and aside from post-processing tricks like noise reduction or equalization (which tend to be anathema to purist audiophiles anyhow) it's not the job of the playback system to "fix" anything.

 

[MediumRare]

I thought this audio site's headline was interesting: https://audiosector.com/ - The purpose of audio is the communication of the original musical inspiration rather than simply obtaining impressive measurement results.

Obviously it won't wash well here .

I've been thinking about this for a while:

This whole paradigm of poets (musicality) v. scientists (cold measurements) is completely wrong.

The musicians, producers, and sound engineers are the poets.

The job of the audio system is to put the words of the poet on the page.

As the reader (listener), you can chose between an edition (audio system) that is crisp and clear, blurry, illustrated, a dramatic reading, or whatever. Something other than the printed words might be wonderful. But don't pretend something other than the words in the exact pattern the poet wrote down are closer to what the poet intended.

 

[snapcrackle]

I've been thinking about this for a while:

This whole paradigm of poets (musicality) v. scientists (cold measurements) is completely wrong.

The musicians, producers, and sound engineers are the poets.

The job of the audio system is to put the words of the poet on the page.

As the reader (listener), you can chose between an edition (audio system) that is crisp and clear, blurry, illustrated, a dramatic reading, or whatever. Something other than the printed words might be wonderful. But don't pretend something other than the words in the exact pattern the poet wrote down are closer to what the poet intended.

OK this is getting Deep ...

 

[zanzibar]

Certainly anything moving the speaker and coupling/decoupling it from the floor can make a difference, particularly big with a suspended floor.
Transformer hum may be influenced by a big enough support but at the price maybe a better unit with a non-humming transformer would be better value for money.
Some electric components are microphonic, but not solid state electronics, mainly valve stuff. Record players pick up environment borne vibration and noise and add it to the cartridge output. This adds a bit of extra reverb which I quite like but a properly engineered turntable should have isolation built in to reduce it. High gain valve kit may well pick up vibration and add to the sound.
Pretty well everything else isn't affected so any gain heard will be imagined or placebo effect, particularly if the support is expensive.

Yes, suspended floor impacts speakers and equipment of all audio persuasion, I know this from experience.

Solid state and Tube equipment both have significant gains with isolation and I've tested this first hand having had a Monaco stand. I have big monoblock tube amps and they both are using isolation techniques above a floor inexpensively with chrome balls in designed holders and inner tubes underneath.

Without them, the sound is "dead." Isolation is a big deal and there's more to it than scientific measurement. It's audible.

 

[cookiefactory]

Yes, suspended floor impacts speakers and equipment of all audio persuasion, I know this from experience.

Solid state and Tube equipment both have significant gains with isolation and I've tested this first hand having had a Monaco stand. I have big monoblock tube amps and they both are using isolation techniques above a floor inexpensively with chrome balls in designed holders and inner tubes underneath.

Without them, the sound is "dead." Isolation is a big deal and there's more to it than scientific measurement. It's audible.

Indeed, perhaps one day science can explain how a Monaco stand works.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Isolation is a big deal and there's more to it than scientific measurement. It's audible.

You may think so, but there is no mechanism by which what you state could be true in the case of most hifi equipment, apart from the placebo effect.
With valves both acoustic and vibration can cause pickup. Speakers can couple to the floor then there is an even greater area (than just the cabinet) radiating inaccurate sound into the room.
It is now almost 50 years since I took my first job in noise and vibration research.
I have heard a lot of impossible statements since.

 

[Purité Audio]

Indeed, perhaps one day science can explain how a Monaco stand works.

Quite, they actually have a disc of sorbathane, not sure that justifies the exorbitant pricing.
Keith

 

[MediumRare]

Without them, the sound is "dead." Isolation is a big deal and there's more to it than scientific measurement. It's audible.

Could you clarify, please?

Are you saying it can't be measured yet it's audible? Can't be measured in the electronics or can't be measured by a microphone connected to an analyzer?

One more: What does "the sound is 'dead'" mean?

 

[bravomail]

My first standalone DAC was a Chord Electronics Gem, this only had inputs for USB and Bluetooth. Out of curiosity I compared it to the CD player I had at the time, Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista, now this was just a bit of fun and not very scientific.

I ripped a CD using iTunes (AAC 256Kbps) and sent this via Bluetooth from my iPod to the Chord Gem while having the same track playing on the CD player, I had staggered the start of the CD by about 10 seconds so I could quickly switch and listen the same section of music.
.

It is really bad test, like the other guy said. U lossily compressed your music twice for DAC -to MP3 then to SBC for bluetooth. SBC is really bad. It also depends on kind of music you test. Pop music will sound OK even at 128kbit MP3. Try some distortet guitar music.

 

[blackmetalboon]

It is really bad test, like the other guy said. U lossily compressed your music twice for DAC -to MP3 then to SBC for bluetooth. SBC is really bad. It also depends on kind of music you test. Pop music will sound OK even at 128kbit MP3. Try some distortet guitar music.

That was the point of the test. How much difference was there between RBCD and the same, purposely, handicapped track.

The answer was very little, it was audible (although I did know which one was playing) but there was not the huge gulf in quality that people would have you believe.

 

[bravomail]

here I am... I tested a Teac UD-503 (ex flagship, 1000 USD price tag) against a FiiO X3 MK III used as a dac and a JDS Atom... not a single slight difference, with an HiFiman HE-560 so not a cheap headphone.

We are in the same boat. You've been just lucky. Cause, as painful as it is, I hear the differences. I don't want to acknowledge them! I just want to listen to my music, videos, games! But the pain, oh, the pain! Now I cannot go back to using cheap $10 headphones with milligrams of copper in their flimsy thin wires, attached to PC's CD headphone jack (they don't make them anymore!) and be perfectly happy!

If you want bad experiences - try SMSL M3, Speaka USB, SMSL Idea, Sabaj Da2, cheap PC motherboards with 6-channel Realtek audio.

 

[bravomail]

That was the point of the test. How much difference was there between RBCD and the same, purposely, handicapped track.

The answer was very little, it was audible (although I did know which one was playing) but there was not the huge gulf in quality that people would have you believe.

You are truly kissed by the Gods!

 

[cookiefactory]

Quite, they actually have a disc of sorbathane, not sure that justifies the exorbitant pricing.
Keith

Heh my bad, tongue-in-cheek doesn’t come through well via text.

 

[filo97s]

We are in the same boat. You've been just lucky. Cause, as painful as it is, I hear the differences. I don't want to acknowledge them! I just want to listen to my music, videos, games! But the pain, oh, the pain! Now I cannot go back to using cheap $10 headphones with milligrams of copper in their flimsy thin wires, attached to PC's CD headphone jack (they don't make them anymore!) and be perfectly happy!

If you want bad experiences - try SMSL M3, Speaka USB, SMSL Idea, Sabaj Da2, cheap PC motherboards with 6-channel Realtek audio.

well for sure changing headphones lead to huge differences, and yes, there are differences between 500USD headphones and 1000 USD headphones and 1500 USD ones... but once you have a good dac and amp, something like D30+Atom for example, you're done from the source's point of view.

 

[snapcrackle]

Yes, suspended floor impacts speakers and equipment of all audio persuasion, I know this from experience.

Solid state and Tube equipment both have significant gains with isolation and I've tested this first hand having had a Monaco stand. I have big monoblock tube amps and they both are using isolation techniques above a floor inexpensively with chrome balls in designed holders and inner tubes underneath.

Without them, the sound is "dead." Isolation is a big deal and there's more to it than scientific measurement. It's audible.

Ha! You're obviously gonna get some skeptisism on a forum like this with a response like that as you can see below your reply - that's to be expected.

Worse still for me in the context of scientific believability - I am hearing differences on solid state DACs by changing what lies beneath. I have no doubts about it which is why I have invested in better dedicated support furniture, where in reality I would rather spend elsewhere. I would rather have not heard any difference - then I could keep my money! In a way I'm glad I now realise this, than be ignorant to the contribution of supports, otherwise I would keep chopping and changing separates without hearing their full potential when auditioning them.