Shootout - Superb Measuring cheap DAC against hi-end DAC - measuring tool - the "ears"

[snapcrackle]

...using appropriate revealing loudspeakers - great amp and solid transport.

Example - Topping DAC against Schiit Yggdrasil or TotalDac.

Let the ears to the measuring. If the latter two obliterate the Topping into smitherines - what the heck does science tell you?

Anyone put their Topping up against their beloved hi-end, maybe Chord DAC or similar and said - nah - can't hear a difference?

 

[Swtoby]

Not Topping, but a Pioneer CD recorder using the DAC input when my $8,000 Spectral SDR 2000 DAC was in for repairs. Same setup: Spectral DMC 30 pre, DMA 150 amp, SDR 3000 transport and $20,000 Avalon Eidolon speakers. I figured I would just slum it for a little bit. Instead I was appalled I didn't hear much difference. It was one of the early experiences I had that something was wrong with the hype of high end audio. The science works. Like it or not.

 

[restorer-john]

Welcome to ASR.

We've all been there before and compared one D/A with another. One CD player with another. Unless one is a broken (faulty) design, it's unlikely you will hear any difference and even if you do, are able to hear that difference consistently enough to be of statistical significance.

That's why we have test equipment. It's unbiased, accurate, quantitative and unless the methods are flawed, the results are consistent and generally beyond reproach.

 

[amirm]

Topping DAC against Schiit Yggdrasil

I performed this test already. I even used the same track the owner of Yggdrasil had used to say it sounded a lot better. The two sounded the same in my careful AB test.

 

[Jinjuku]

What major metropolitan area are you by? Maybe a truly blinded A/B can be setup.

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Anyone put their Topping up against their beloved hi-end, maybe Chord DAC or similar and said - nah - can't hear a difference?

Yep...
I heard a Topping D10 vs a Meitner, a resonessence Invicta and a top spec Holo dac.
Level matched very crudely by ear.
They all sound the same.

It was my best lesson in this hobby. Got me off the merry go round.

 

[VintageFlanker]

...using appropriate revealing loudspeakers - great amp and solid transport.

Example - Topping DAC against Schiit Yggdrasil or TotalDac.

Let the ears to the measuring. If the latter two obliterate the Topping into smitherines - what the heck does science tell you?

Anyone put their Topping up against their beloved hi-end, maybe Chord DAC or similar and said - nah - can't hear a difference?

Where is the facepalm button?

Seriously, we are clearly dealing with some kind of troll here... Probably someone previously banned who comes back here to mess around...

No need to further replies.

 

[ahofer]

...using appropriate revealing loudspeakers - great amp and solid transport.

Example - Topping DAC against Schiit Yggdrasil or TotalDac.

Let the ears to the measuring. If the latter two obliterate the Topping into smitherines - what the heck does science tell you?

Anyone put their Topping up against their beloved hi-end, maybe Chord DAC or similar and said - nah - can't hear a difference?

Sounds like a good idea. You might even get someone to put up $10k against &1k for your favorite charity if you can distinguish blind 9/10 times.....

 

[PyramidElectric]

Yep I did exactly this. Topping D10 vs. Chord Mojo (level matched) playing exactly the same file into Naim Nait 5Si with B&W DM602 speakers, could not tell any difference whatsoever.

 

[snapcrackle]

I’m not a troll - I’ve been reading this forum with interest and would genuinely like to know - sorry I appeared that way.

I live in the UK - Norfolk - in case anyone does want to run a test like this.

I don’t mind bringing the equipment - I just need a decent auditioning room.

 

[VintageFlanker]

I’m not a troll - I’ve been reading this forum with interest and would genuinely like to know - sorry I appeared that way.

Read your first post again. It does sound like provocation to me, especially if you knew the forum already. Glad If you aren't one.

I live in the UK - Norfolk - in case anyone does want to run a test like this.
I don’t mind bringing the equipment - I just need a decent auditioning room.

Well, that's the spirit. Hope someone would perform a proper blind test and see what is going on.

...using appropriate revealing loudspeakers - great amp and solid transport.

Would be good to mention which equipment you used precisely. Without objective datas: great, revealing, and solid don't mean anything but your personal appreciation.

 

[snapcrackle]

I've got a selection of amps - good enough quality to reveal any difference ups the chain.

My own personal preference would be the following:

Marantz NA7004 as a transport - solid as a rock!
>>>> DACs to try <<<<<
Musical Fidelity MS3i amplifier (I was going to mention Croft pre/power, but a valve amp may put some people off)
Role Audio Enterprise Loudspeakers - the star of the show and they are full range speakers - these will tell your "ears" what's really happening! No cheap speakers to mask or rose tint the sound.
Lastly - and very importantly - high quality support furniture - namely Atacama Evoque Eco 60-40 SE2 Series racks.

 

[BDWoody]

...
Anyone put their Topping up against their beloved hi-end, maybe Chord DAC or similar and said - nah - can't hear a difference?

I put an Auralic Vega up against a pro-ject DAC and several others including Krell and Integra processors. Added several Toppings since. In all cases, I said, and I quote:
"Nah - Can't hear a difference..."

 

[Rja4000]

very importantly - high quality support furniture - namely Atacama Evoque Eco 60-40 SE2 Series racks

That one always makes me laugh.

I can tell you that I, myself, personally could hear the difference, for sure, between a proper, heavy, marble or stone, rack and... a loudspeaker top, with a turntable and 105dB/W/1m loudspeakers...
The difference was immediate, huge, and obvious.
That's called feedback.
(Also called by Søren Absalon Larsen's name)

 

[JJB70]

DACs were commoditised years ago. If you really want to identify really excellently designed engineers then measurement is necessary, DAC performance parameters can be measured. Unless a DAC has been deliberately engineered to have a coloured sound (why would you? Really?) or spectacularly badly engineered then it will be audibly transparent.

 

[Xulonn]

Lastly - and very importantly - high quality support furniture - namely Atacama Evoque Eco 60-40 SE2 Series racks.

Brings to mind the blind listening test comparing expensive audio components on expensive racks to cheap stuff stacked on a chair...LINK

 

[majingotan]

Do any of you guys believe that you have to listen to a DAC for a long time say 50 minutes for example to actually discern their differences? Subjectivists say one won't be able to discern the differences clearly enough with a short A/B sighted listening

 

[VintageFlanker]

Marantz NA7004 as a transport - solid as a rock!
>>>> DACs to try <<<<<
Musical Fidelity MS3i amplifier (I was going to mention Croft pre/power, but a valve amp may put some people off)
Role Audio Enterprise Loudspeakers - the star of the show and they are full range speakers - these will tell your "ears" what's really happening! No cheap speakers to mask or rose tint the sound.

Hum...
Thing is, all the stuff you mentioned are kind of "mid-end"... So no offense, but: What the point (assuming there is any...) to pair this system with an Yggdrasil or, at even higher costs, a TotalDac...?!

Ps: You still didn't mentioned the Topping you tested.

Do any of you guys believe that you have to listen to a DAC for a long time say 50 minutes for example to actually discern their differences?

Impossible. Immediate auditive memory doesn't last that long. It would completely bias the test.

 

[solderdude]

Do any of you guys believe that you have to listen to a DAC for a long time say 50 minutes for example to actually discern their differences? Subjectivists say one won't be able to discern the differences clearly enough with a short A/B sighted listening

I have (accidentally) proven to myself, 2 times, that long time exposure is needed to asses audio equipment is a bogus argument.
That's all I know and can tell you.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Do any of you guys believe that you have to listen to a DAC for a long time say 50 minutes for example to actually discern their differences? Subjectivists say one won't be able to discern the differences clearly enough with a short A/B sighted listening

You no doubt feel better with longer listening, seem to gain confidence. Its been tested, and shorter is better. Lots better. The difference in discernment for even 30 seconds vs shorter is quite large.