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Neutral bookshelf speakers @ $2000?

napilopez

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The listening test conducted between the M2 and Salon2 was sighted. Not to mention, when you have two loudspeakers measuring so well, I am of the assumption that it'd be up for grabs in a controlled and unsighted test... DI was also mentioned already and that should be noted.

The AVS thread said the test was blind. Or at least, the part of it I'm referring to, I believe they did some stereo sighted listening for fun too.

"In addition, part of the listening sessions will be conducted in a truly blind fashion, with both speakers hidden from view so no one knows which speaker is playing at any given time. "

Was there another public shootout I'm not aware of? Anyway, the reason it was remarkable to me wasn't just that the Salon2 won, but that it won by a rather large margin on two separate days of testing (80:20 and 65:35). Granted, it was only a small group of 15 people, but over a large number of test tracks.
 
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Ron Texas

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The AVS thread said the test was blind. Or at least, the part of it I'm referring to, I believe they did some stereo sighted listening for fun too.

"In addition, part of the listening sessions will be conducted in a truly blind fashion, with both speakers hidden from view so no one knows which speaker is playing at any given time. "

Was there another public shootout I'm not aware of? Anyway, the reason it was remarkable to me wasn't just that the Salon2 won, but that it won by a rather large margin on two separate days of testing (80:20 and 65:35). Granted, it was only a small group of 15 people, but over a large number of test tracks.

So much for active vs passive. Too bad neither one will fit on a bookshelf.
 

Biblob

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If you're in America, I would also recommend to look at the Philharmonic BMR monitor.

Link (with meausurements): http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/BMR Philharmonitor.html

(the link button does not work on my Android Chrome)

Edit: I know remember Phil was'nt doing well a couple of months ago. Don't know if he is still doing speaker work.
 

napilopez

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If you're in America, I would also recommend to look at the Philharmonic BMR monitor.

Link (with meausurements): http://www.philharmonicaudio.com/BMR Philharmonitor.html

(the link button does not work on my Android Chrome)

Edit: I know remember Phil was'nt doing well a couple of months ago. Don't know if he is still doing speaker work.

He's not taking new orders as far as I know. You can get them from salk, but they cost $2,400+ from there. From what I've read though, they are still worth that price. The salk cabinets are also, presumably, nicer.

If you're really enterprising, there's now a kit available to build your own. Parts cost ~$1,000, but you'll have to make your own cabinet.

https://meniscusaudio.com/product/phiharmonic-audio-bmr-speaker-kit/
 

Rja4000

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For us, mere Europeans, the Focal Aria 948 may be a good option.
Oops... Bookshelf, it's not!
 

Daverz

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I'm happy enough with the Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2-EX:
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neutral-bookshelf-speakers-2000.9546/
Can be as low as $1,500 now. They sell direct with a 30 day in-home trial. Please see the site for details and their forum for discussions.
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/forumdisplay.php?2-Loudspeakers-Subwoofers-Accessories-Electronics

Those measurements look great, and more complete than Buchardt (though for the polar plot, I find a color intensity plot easier to interpret than a contour plot). I'm very happy with my S400s, but wish I'd heard of Ascend before. They need better marketing.
 

aarons915

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Those measurements look great, and more complete than Buchardt (though for the polar plot, I find a color intensity plot easier to interpret than a contour plot). I'm very happy with my S400s, but wish I'd heard of Ascend before. They need better marketing.

Someone over on AVS who has both says the S400 are the best he's heard under 2k so you're good, they do seem similar though except for the dispersion patterns. Both show the "Spinorama" style measurement which tell you everything you need to know about a speakers sound quality.
 

MSNWatch

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At last someone notices .... :'(

Then if that is your preference then buy the Revels. You will be happy with any of the options listed here - even the Neumann speakers. I realize you may be writing actives off but if you haven’t used good active speakers before you don’t know what you are missing.

And to repeat proper room correction will make a more substantive difference than any of the differences discussed here among the short listed speakers.
 

sfdoddsy

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I've had the LS50, R3 and Revel M20 in my room in recent times.

As mentioned above, decent room correction (in my case Anthem ARC) does make much more difference than any between the speakers themselves.

Neutral speakers tend to sound alike.
 

Severian

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That's a shame about Dennis Murphy shutting down Philharmonic. The Philharmonitors are the best stand mount speakers I've ever heard, hands down. They stole the show the year I heard them at Capital Audio Fest against all of the audiophool stuff at 10x the price.
 

echopraxia

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This topic interests me as well, since I’m also in the market for new speakers under $3k or so. And, like OP I think scientific measurements are often the best way to shop for speakers, since listening briefly to speakers in a foreign room is bound to be unreliable.

I think it would be a good idea to focus this thread a bit more narrowly. I see a lot of divergence into meta-discussion debating the science, and even recommendations for speakers based on subjective impressions, which is exactly the opposite of what the OP asked for.

One thing I like about audiosciencereview is the focus on scientific measurements instead of anecdotal subjective reviews — because you can find those literally everywhere else, in excess.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m by no means advocating radical faith in the current scientific theory as immutable eternal truth. Since scientific theory does evolve over time, it’s entirely possible that spinoramas are insufficient to tell you everything you need to know about how a speaker sounds, and that debate is indeed fascinating one. But, I don’t think this is the place for it.

Therefore, I propose we focus only on speakers with published measurements, comparing those measurements, and ideally ruling out speakers that perform worse than others in this category according to measurements alone (ignoring subjective reviews).

To that end, I’d like to being to attention the spin measurements of the Buchardt S400 versus other speakers mentioned here, at least two of which appear to have objectively better measurements.

Buchardt S400:

1572064125045.png

1572064136406.png


Ascend Sierra 2EX:

1572064207401.gif


KEF R3:

1572064193138.png


Revel M106:

1572064404203.jpeg


Is it just me, or does the Buchardt S400 spinorama measurement show significantly inferior performance vs the KEF R3 and Ascend Sierra 2EX? There appears to be a relatively significant problem with the directivity index and sound power curve — an issue which does not exist in the other speakers (except perhaps to some extent in the M106).

Ironically, even the Revel M106 seems outclassed a bit by both KEF and Ascend, using Harman’s own spin measurements (certainly in terms of plot smoothness and flatness, though we can argue endless about which overall slope trend flavor is subjectively preferred). But that’s a good sign for the science, since it means the science isn’t just something Harman developed to make Harman speakers look good: it’s unbiased and revealing in ways maybe it’s own creators might not like.

Any other thoughts on interpreting these graphs? Either we rule out the Buchardt S400 (and possibly the Revel M106) as the lowest performer(s) of this group of four, or someone must explain exactly why their measurements are not inferior to the other two (KEF and Ascend).

Given that nobody seems to be talking about this, perhaps my interpretation of the spins may be mistaken? If so, it would be very important for someone to explain exactly how and why this is; not just for my benefit, but for everyone reading this thread. Because the S400’s measurements here do appear to be objectively outclassed by the KEF R3 and Ascend Sierra 2EX, which are priced similarly.

Meta note: Remember, this is a forum specifically oriented towards comparing scientific measurements of audio equipment. So please don’t bring subjective listening anecdotes into this (e.g. in the context of this thread, I do not care how many reviewers hyped up on the Buchardt S400 call it ‘the best speaker under $2k ever‘; we all know the biases humans are prone to). And please don’t bring brand loyalty into this: Don't worry, none of us are bashing your speakers. All the speakers listed here are fantastic products. We are intentionally (almost by definition) “splitting hairs” here.
 

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MSNWatch

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This topic interests me as well, since I’m also in the market for new speakers under $3k or so. And, like OP I think scientific measurements are often the best way to shop for speakers, since listening briefly to speakers in a foreign room is bound to be unreliable.

I think it would be a good idea to focus this thread a bit more narrowly. I see a lot of divergence into meta-discussion debating the science, and even recommendations for speakers based on subjective impressions, which is exactly the opposite of what the OP asked for.

One thing I like about audiosciencereview is the focus on scientific measurements instead of anecdotal subjective reviews — because you can find those literally everywhere else, in excess.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m by no means advocating radical faith in the current scientific theory as immutable eternal truth. Since scientific theory does evolve over time, it’s entirely possible that spinoramas are insufficient to tell you everything you need to know about how a speaker sounds, and that debate is indeed fascinating one. But, I don’t think this is the place for it.

Therefore, I propose we focus only on speakers with published measurements, comparing those measurements, and ideally ruling out speakers that perform worse than others in this category according to measurements alone (ignoring subjective reviews).

To that end, I’d like to being to attention the spin measurements of the Buchardt S400 versus three other speakers mentioned here which to me appear to have objectively better measurements.

Buchardt S400:

View attachment 36930
View attachment 36931

Ascend Sierra 2EX:

View attachment 36933

KEF R3:

View attachment 36932

Revel M106:

View attachment 36934

Is it just me, or does the Buchardt S400 spinorama measurement show significantly inferior performance vs the KEF R3, Ascend Sierra 2EX, and Revel M106? There appears to be a significant problem with the directivity index and sound power curve, an issue which does not exist in the other speakers.

Ironically, even the Revel M106 seems outclassed a bit by both KEF and Ascend, using Harman’s own spin measurements (certainly in terms of plot smoothness and flatness, though we can argue endless about which overall slope trend flavor is subjectively preferred). But that’s a good sign for the science, since it means the science isn’t just something Harman developed to make Harman speakers look good: it’s unbiased and revealing in ways maybe it’s own creators might not like.

Any other thoughts on interpreting these graphs? I propose we rule out the Buchardt S400 (and possible the Revel M106) as the two lowest performers of this group of four. Remember, please don’t bring subjective listening anecdotes into this. This is a forum for science discussion and comparing measurements directly.

Ideally though these measurements should be performed using the same methodology by an expert third party with no financial interest in the outcome like how Amir does it. And also reproducible with different samples. I know a very high bar but it has to be high if you are going strictly by data.

These 4 speakers though are probably close enough that other variables like price, size, looks become key factors that may trump the small measured differences. And we’re not even factoring the effects of the room.
 

echopraxia

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I agree in principle, but we have to work with the data we have.

However, to your point about measurement process: While the existence of measurement process variations can excuse subtle differences between two measurement results (when no major flaws are revealed), the same cannot be said when significant flaws do show up in one speaker but not the other. Such significant differences require a specific explanation before we can excuse the anomalous low performer — even when comparing against different measurement processes (as long as the quantity attempting to be measured is the same, as is the case here).

In other words, we must err on the side of pessimism and either accept the flaws we see in the measurement as likely correct, or explain precisely what went wrong with the measurement.

So, in particular: Are you saying the S400’s ~5db deviation at 2kHz in both the sound power and directivity index plots could be explained away as measurement process variation? How could a different measurement process possibly result in an incorrect discontinuity like this, which coincidentally lies exactly at speaker’s crossover point?

I am open minded to possible explanations here, but there does need to be an explanation to excuse this beyond vague hand waving. This is a significant difference, and therefore I don’t think it’s fair to just say it’s “close enough”: Significant differences require significant explanations to excuse. Therefore, we have to either (1) understand precisely what invalidates this part of the measurement, or (2) accept the measurement and its implications at face value.
 
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Blumlein 88

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This topic interests me as well, since I’m also in the market for new speakers under $3k or so. And, like OP I think scientific measurements are often the best way to shop for speakers, since listening briefly to speakers in a foreign room is bound to be unreliable.

I think it would be a good idea to focus this thread a bit more narrowly. I see a lot of divergence into meta-discussion debating the science, and even recommendations for speakers based on subjective impressions, which is exactly the opposite of what the OP asked for.

One thing I like about audiosciencereview is the focus on scientific measurements instead of anecdotal subjective reviews — because you can find those literally everywhere else, in excess.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m by no means advocating radical faith in the current scientific theory as immutable eternal truth. Since scientific theory does evolve over time, it’s entirely possible that spinoramas are insufficient to tell you everything you need to know about how a speaker sounds, and that debate is indeed fascinating one. But, I don’t think this is the place for it.

Therefore, I propose we focus only on speakers with published measurements, comparing those measurements, and ideally ruling out speakers that perform worse than others in this category according to measurements alone (ignoring subjective reviews).

To that end, I’d like to being to attention the spin measurements of the Buchardt S400 versus other speakers mentioned here, at least two of which appear to have objectively better measurements.

Buchardt S400:

View attachment 36930
View attachment 36931

Ascend Sierra 2EX:

View attachment 36933

KEF R3:

View attachment 36932

Revel M106:

View attachment 36934

Is it just me, or does the Buchardt S400 spinorama measurement show significantly inferior performance vs the KEF R3 and Ascend Sierra 2EX? There appears to be a relatively significant problem with the directivity index and sound power curve — an issue which does not exist in the other speakers (except perhaps to some extent in the M106).

Ironically, even the Revel M106 seems outclassed a bit by both KEF and Ascend, using Harman’s own spin measurements (certainly in terms of plot smoothness and flatness, though we can argue endless about which overall slope trend flavor is subjectively preferred). But that’s a good sign for the science, since it means the science isn’t just something Harman developed to make Harman speakers look good: it’s unbiased and revealing in ways maybe it’s own creators might not like.

Any other thoughts on interpreting these graphs? Either we rule out the Buchardt S400 (and possibly the Revel M106) as the lowest performer(s) of this group of four, or someone must explain exactly why their measurements are not inferior to the other two (KEF and Ascend).

Given that nobody seems to be talking about this, perhaps my interpretation of the spins may be mistaken? If so, it would be very important for someone to explain exactly how and why this is; not just for my benefit, but for everyone reading this thread. Because the S400’s measurements here do appear to be objectively outclassed by the KEF R3 and Ascend Sierra 2EX, which are priced similarly.

Meta note: Remember, this is a forum specifically oriented towards comparing scientific measurements of audio equipment. So please don’t bring subjective listening anecdotes into this (e.g. in the context of this thread, I do not care how many reviewers hyped up on the Buchardt S400 call it ‘the best speaker under $2k ever‘; we all know the biases humans are prone to). And please don’t bring brand loyalty into this: Don't worry, none of us are bashing your speakers. All the speakers listed here are fantastic products. We are intentionally (almost by definition) “splitting hairs” here.
The S400 seems out-classed here. Though mixing these without knowing details of the measurement procedure is iffy.

The R3 looks very good, but I wonder if that data is smoothed and by how much. I think Harman uses 1/20th octave smoothing. Smoothing at 1/12 th or 1/6 th octave would give a much nicer picture vs 1/20th.
 

Blumlein 88

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As an example here is the same measurement shown with 1/6th smoothing and 1/24th smoothing.

1572068900401.png
 

napilopez

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This topic interests me as well, since I’m also in the market for new speakers under $3k or so. And, like OP I think scientific measurements are often the best way to shop for speakers, since listening briefly to speakers in a foreign room is bound to be unreliable.

I think it would be a good idea to focus this thread a bit more narrowly. I see a lot of divergence into meta-discussion debating the science, and even recommendations for speakers based on subjective impressions, which is exactly the opposite of what the OP asked for.

One thing I like about audiosciencereview is the focus on scientific measurements instead of anecdotal subjective reviews — because you can find those literally everywhere else, in excess.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m by no means advocating radical faith in the current scientific theory as immutable eternal truth. Since scientific theory does evolve over time, it’s entirely possible that spinoramas are insufficient to tell you everything you need to know about how a speaker sounds, and that debate is indeed fascinating one. But, I don’t think this is the place for it.

Therefore, I propose we focus only on speakers with published measurements, comparing those measurements, and ideally ruling out speakers that perform worse than others in this category according to measurements alone (ignoring subjective reviews).

To that end, I’d like to being to attention the spin measurements of the Buchardt S400 versus other speakers mentioned here, at least two of which appear to have objectively better measurements.

Buchardt S400:

View attachment 36930
View attachment 36931

Ascend Sierra 2EX:

View attachment 36933

KEF R3:

View attachment 36932

Revel M106:

View attachment 36934

Is it just me, or does the Buchardt S400 spinorama measurement show significantly inferior performance vs the KEF R3 and Ascend Sierra 2EX? There appears to be a relatively significant problem with the directivity index and sound power curve — an issue which does not exist in the other speakers (except perhaps to some extent in the M106).

Ironically, even the Revel M106 seems outclassed a bit by both KEF and Ascend, using Harman’s own spin measurements (certainly in terms of plot smoothness and flatness, though we can argue endless about which overall slope trend flavor is subjectively preferred). But that’s a good sign for the science, since it means the science isn’t just something Harman developed to make Harman speakers look good: it’s unbiased and revealing in ways maybe it’s own creators might not like.

Any other thoughts on interpreting these graphs? Either we rule out the Buchardt S400 (and possibly the Revel M106) as the lowest performer(s) of this group of four, or someone must explain exactly why their measurements are not inferior to the other two (KEF and Ascend).

Given that nobody seems to be talking about this, perhaps my interpretation of the spins may be mistaken? If so, it would be very important for someone to explain exactly how and why this is; not just for my benefit, but for everyone reading this thread. Because the S400’s measurements here do appear to be objectively outclassed by the KEF R3 and Ascend Sierra 2EX, which are priced similarly.

Meta note: Remember, this is a forum specifically oriented towards comparing scientific measurements of audio equipment. So please don’t bring subjective listening anecdotes into this (e.g. in the context of this thread, I do not care how many reviewers hyped up on the Buchardt S400 call it ‘the best speaker under $2k ever‘; we all know the biases humans are prone to). And please don’t bring brand loyalty into this: Don't worry, none of us are bashing your speakers. All the speakers listed here are fantastic products. We are intentionally (almost by definition) “splitting hairs” here.

While I appreciate the spirit of this, subjective impressions are data points, even if they are unreliable as a primary metric. I do not think the data available on the above speakers is sufficient to make conclusive assessments. Even amir makes subjective comments on the gear he reviews =]

But as you say, we're splitting hairs. I'd be happy to continue to analyze the available data more in depth.
The S400 seems out-classed here. Though mixing these without knowing details of the measurement procedure is iffy.

The R3 looks very good, but I wonder if that data is smoothed and by how much. I think Harman uses 1/20th octave smoothing. Smoothing at 1/12 th or 1/6 th octave would give a much nicer picture vs 1/20th.

It's kind of weird.The smoothing looks in line with the others to me, in fact, it doesn't even really look smoothed. If you open the KEF R series white paper and zoom in, there does seem to be some more fine detail to it. On the other hand, the on-axis curve does look flatter than both my measurements and that of hi-fi news, which show very similar shapes.

Ours are still impressively flat, but there are some notable low Q dips at 1k and 2k. KEFs seems almost perfect. Could be a difference in methodology, e.g. measuring at home on a stand with gated measurements vs an anechoic chamber with specialized equipment.

That said, perhaps more notable is the difference in aspect ratio. The KEF is helped by a relatively wide aspect ratio. Something to always keep in mind in these evaluations, as a wider aspect ratio can make a curve look much flatter.
 

maty

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With the number of speakers for sale it is better to focus on those that have many measurements. One that I would like to see more often is that of harmonics, with H2 > H3 as the expensive Grimm LS1.

[PDF] https://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/speakers.pdf

Grimm-LS1-harmonics.png


PS: this week I have managed to improve the sound of my KEF Q100 a little more thanks to Rephase , with the same parameters as PEQ JRiver MC 64-bit, in minimum phase too.
 
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OP
V

veeceem

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Wow, KEF R3 seems similar in performance to Revel M16 but (more than) twice the price here o_O
 

BillG

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Wow, KEF R3 seems similar in performance to Revel M16

One thing I've noticed is that Revel doesn't list the harmonic distortion rates for the M16, while KEF does for the R3. With the R3 being a 3 way design, it might actually beat the M16 in that area since it's merely a 2 way. The KEF also digs a bit deeper into the bass region. Regardless, I'm sure they both probably provide a great listening experience... :cool:
 
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