Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review

[tjcinnamon]

Do these measurements tell us anything about the Auddyssey and Dirac processing sample rates? Are they still limited to 48kHz like in older D&M AVR/AVPs?

Yeah, limited to 48kHz. Spotify is less than 48kHz and AppleTV is downsampled everything to 48kHz

 

[Sal1950]

Yeah, limited to 48kHz. Spotify is less than 48kHz and AppleTV is downsampled everything to 48kHz

AFAIK, Spotify has yet to release the 3 year promised lossless tier. Their stream is very slightly audibly inferior sounding.
Sad in this day and age.

Apple's 48k is more than good enough to supply a fully transparent vessel of whatever the source is they supply. As with all the other lossless tier streamers, you do have to be aware of the source they offer.. Sadly with the popular genre styles of music, much of what they stream comes from the bottom of the barrel losers in the loudness war masterings.
Personally I use Apple simply because the offer the largest catalog by far of Atmos multich files. Unfortunately they are still streaming Atmos in a less than lossless, compressed manner, but at least (just like in the ole days of lossy 2ch) it offers an opportunity to preview a release before purchase. I'm hoping that the more the audible weakness of Apple's Atmos files is talked about and publicized on the internet, that someday they will change to lossless Atmos streaming.
It took something like 2+decades to get there with 2ch streaming.

 

[tjcinnamon]

AFAIK, Spotify has yet to release the 3 year promised lossless tier. Their stream is very slightly audibly inferior sounding.
Sad in this day and age.

Apple's 48k is more than good enough to supply a fully transparent vessel of whatever the source is they supply. As with all the other lossless tier streamers, you do have to be aware of the source they offer.. Sadly with the popular genre styles of music, much of what they stream comes from the bottom of the barrel losers in the loudness war masterings.
Personally I use Apple simply because the offer the largest catalog by far of Atmos multich files. Unfortunately they are still streaming Atmos in a less than lossless, compressed manner, but at least (just like in the ole days of lossy 2ch) it offers an opportunity to preview a release before purchase. I'm hoping that the more the audible weakness of Apple's Atmos files is talked about and publicized on the internet, that someday they will change to lossless Atmos streaming.
It took something like 2+decades to get there with 2ch streaming.

100%

I’m totally happy with 48k and I’ve been hammering Spotify on Twitter waiting for high res. Given I always use room correction, 48k is all I ask for. I really like Spotify overall and I don’t need anything higher than 48.

I’m a big video guy too and the streaming services are terribly neutered bitrate. Like 20mbps at best for audio AND video.

Kalaidescape offers stuff and Bravia Core (for Sony stuff) but what about streaming originals (Netflix exclusive for example).

I guess our source has a ceiling with room correction, but these companys can’t even hit that.

 

[dsd4life]

AFAIK, Spotify has yet to release the 3 year promised lossless tier. Their stream is very slightly audibly inferior sounding.
Sad in this day and age.

Apple's 48k is more than good enough to supply a fully transparent vessel of whatever the source is they supply. As with all the other lossless tier streamers, you do have to be aware of the source they offer.. Sadly with the popular genre styles of music, much of what they stream comes from the bottom of the barrel losers in the loudness war masterings.
Personally I use Apple simply because the offer the largest catalog by far of Atmos multich files. Unfortunately they are still streaming Atmos in a less than lossless, compressed manner, but at least (just like in the ole days of lossy 2ch) it offers an opportunity to preview a release before purchase. I'm hoping that the more the audible weakness of Apple's Atmos files is talked about and publicized on the internet, that someday they will change to lossless Atmos streaming.
It took something like 2+decades to get there with 2ch streaming.

Eversolo can do loserless Apple Music 2 channel native.

I am not sure when Apple will do lossless PCM Atmos on the fly (i think they call that Dolby MAT 2.0.). Listen to a DSD 5.1 rip off piratebay like Billy Joels' The Stranger. You will never go back to Apple 4K spatial streams again.

 

[Descartes]

On AVS, MarkRubin and Bonzo17 compared the AV10 and AVM90, and both narrowly preferred the Anthem.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/marantz-av10-vs-anthem-av90.3264422/page-4?post_id=63052409&nested_view=1#post-63052409

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/marantz-av10-vs-anthem-av90.3264422/?post_id=62271263&nested_view=1#post-62271263

I read these and o boy! Definitely super subjective!

 

[Sal1950]

Eversolo can do loserless Apple Music 2 channel native.

I am not sure when Apple will do lossless PCM Atmos on the fly (i think they call that Dolby MAT 2.0.). Listen to a DSD 5.1 rip off piratebay like Billy Joels' The Stranger. You will never go back to Apple 4K spatial streams again.

I use an Apple 4k TV box directly into my Denon AVR via HDMI. If configured correctly that's as good as it gets with Apple.

Listen to a DSD 5.1 rip off piratebay like Billy Joels' The Stranger. You will never go back to Apple 4K spatial streams again.

Ah, that may be a bridge too far. Choosing a lossless 5.1 mix over a lossy Atmos mix will be a personal decision.
I've got a couple hundred DSD 5.1 rips directly off the discs and yes, they can sound incredible, but you make an apples/oranges comparison here. In any case I use Apple streaming simply to preview things I don't yet own, but it still remains a great and IMO the best current option for those interested in streaming multich. If and when something better comes along I've got no stock in Apple.

I really like Spotify overall

I loved Spotify and used them for years before the days of cheap lossless.
I still believe they have the best user interface available but time moves on and quality always comes first here.

Kalaidescape offers stuff

I'd love to have Kalaidescape but the cost is way too high for my media budget.
In any case I don't watch movies that much, my rig is probably used 95% for music and 5% for movies.
That is excluding time used to watch a few mindless TV offerings in which case I don't even bother to turn on the AVR.

 

[spizz]

On AVS, MarkRubin and Bonzo17 compared the AV10 and AVM90, and both narrowly preferred the Anthem.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/marantz-av10-vs-anthem-av90.3264422/page-4?post_id=63052409&nested_view=1#post-63052409

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/marantz-av10-vs-anthem-av90.3264422/?post_id=62271263&nested_view=1#post-62271263

I think Bonzo17 might now prefer the AV10 since the Anthem destroyed his centre channel.

 

[SoundVideo]

Let me ask you about the Amp10. From Gene´s review in Audioholics, it seems that from numbers, the thing is a monster supplying a lot of very clean power. My guess is that it can probably drive your R11 without a sweat. How hard have you pushed the amp in terms of used channels and watts pumping on your speakers?
Historically, Marantz has produced AV and amp gear that heats up a bit, so how´s the Amp10 in that regard? I guess the AV10 will not have heat issues and may just get warm to the touch.


At least in this case, the aesthetic factor of the in walls is combined with good performance...

As far as the AMP10 heat is concerned, I don't notice anything to the touch as it runs cool. Re: channels. I have a 7.2.4 system. All KEF Meta R series. The inwalls are (more-or-less) the R11 Meta, wrapped in aluminum. And the inceiling speaker are their recently released 10" Reference Meta versions (which MY ruler measures an 8" driver; not 10"). I also run zone 2 and zone 3 off of the AMP10 using the HEOS feature for those zones (master bath and outdoor deck). Those are not on when I drive the system. I didn't measure the SPL, but you can ask my neighbor 50 yards away with the windows shut. It was well above reference levels.

I was debating between putting in the Denon A1H because I recently got a pallet at a yearend deal. I'm not going to mess with comparing the two for now. I'm extremely delighted with the total system sound. I am still going to try and biamp those from R11's to see if I hear any differences. As I mentioned in another post, my ears have come up absent in hearing a sonic advantage with biamping with powerful separates. YMMV.

My only critique on these R11's Meta's has nothing to do with SQ, rather. Analogous to people critical about the remote quality, my beef is with the back binding post assembly. I wish they would have spent another $2 on each pair of binding posts. Plus, thicken up the black plastic assembly. Go ahead and blow another $3 per speaker on that. Then, charge me for it. It looks a little flimsy. I know, it doesn't change the SQ. But if I am buying testosterone. Give me the full dose!

 

[SoundVideo]

Do these measurements tell us anything about the Auddyssey and Dirac processing sample rates? Are they still limited to 48kHz like in older D&M AVR/AVPs?

re: Audyssey. The sample rate is 48K. I was told by the 8802 and 8805 Marantz product manager that if you double the sample rates, you need to quadruple the amount of MIPS needed on the DSPs?! I forgot why that is. But I could re-ask.

Re: Dirac. I assume the hardware limits it to 96K.

With XT32, the number crunching is done inside the processor. Hence, the 48K sample rate limitation is lower with Audyssey. To get 96K with Audyssey, Marantz would have to blow a lot of money and real estate to achieve that reality.

That all said, I have a DVD Audio disk (that I have also ripped) called the "Resolution Project". It's a disk that has 4 different recordings produced in different resolutions and goes up to 24-192K. The guy who produced it is from MN. I found him during my detailed search in 2010 about blind listening tests. We talked for a long time, and he was one of many data points that formed my opinion on the topic. Anyways, that disk, which is now ripped, allows you to test multiple sample rates in the blind. In conclusion, he found no human that he tested could discern the difference between 24-48K and 24-192K. It also contains compressed versions of the same songs that he recorded. Logic aside, the question comes up often.

 

[welwynnick]

I was debating between putting in the Denon A1H because I recently got a pallet at a yearend deal. I'm not going to mess with comparing the two for now. I'm extremely delighted with the total system sound. I am still going to try and biamp those from R11's to see if I hear any differences. As I mentioned in another post, my ears have come up absent in hearing a sonic advantage with biamping with powerful separates. YMMV.

Is there anything we can do to persuade you to compare the A1H as a processor?
I know it's not quick and easy. Been there, done that, a lot.
But I think it would be a really interesting result.

 

[SoundVideo]

Is there anything we can do to persuade you to compare the A1H as a processor?
I know it's not quick and easy. Been there, done that, a lot.
But I think it would be a really interesting result.

Sure. If someone is in the PHX metro area, come over and help. I am in the North Scottsdale area. I'm flying to MN to freeze mid-February for a wedding. I could grab my ABX box and pack it back to MN. We could also drag each stack to another room. Or, we could drag the stack to another person's home around the PHX metro. As I said earlier, room acoustics matter.

The "helping" part of the equation is mostly needed for motivation. Plus, they are heavy, and my 58-year-old back isn't appreciating it as much.

 

[Sal1950]

I was debating between putting in the Denon A1H because I recently got a pallet at a yearend deal.

With all your talk here about what a big player you are in AV market, don't you think it's past time you
reveal exactly who you are, register at the site as a dealer etc?
It's time for some transparency in your identity.
TIA

 

[SoundVideo]

With all your talk here about what a big player you are in AV market, don't you think it's past time you
reveal exactly who you are, register at the site as a dealer etc?
It's time for some transparency in your identity.
TIA

I had intentionally not mentioned who I am. Because I am not here to "sell equipment". Personally, I am not interested in lining up in some dealer section of the website like Buckeye Audio or whoever. As a side note, I'm not a "big player". Rather, I sell a lot of higher-end priced products specifically related to home theater. Crutchfield and others sell 40X more than I do. But not Marantz processors. Still, the total sales volume is small. i.e., if you sell 50+ $7K retail price AV10's a year, you are a large dealer. Actually, the largest. I'm that guy.

My passion is for MY system. Therefore, I visit the factories and talk with the engineers etc. Specifically, to get info for my systems. And I'm sharing what I learned. If that doesn't fit with the site's model, I'd be happy to leave.

 

[EWL5]

I had intentionally not mentioned who I am. Because I am not here to "sell equipment". Personally, I am not interested in lining up in some dealer section of the website like Buckeye Audio or whoever. As a side note, I'm not a "big player". Rather, I sell a lot of higher-end priced products specifically related to home theater. Crutchfield and others sell 40X more than I do. But not Marantz processors. Still, the total sales volume is small. i.e., if you sell 50+ $7K retail price AV10's a year, you are a large dealer. Actually, the largest. I'm that guy.

My passion is for MY system. Therefore, I visit the factories and talk with the engineers etc. Specifically, to get info for my systems. And I'm sharing what I learned. If that doesn't fit with the site's model, I'd be happy to leave.

I think we could always use another insider. At the end of the day, everyone on ASR could be labeled an "audio enthusiast" so we have that in common!

 

[peng]

re: Audyssey. The sample rate is 48K. I was told by the 8802 and 8805 Marantz product manager that if you double the sample rates, you need to quadruple the amount of MIPS needed on the DSPs?! I forgot why that is. But I could re-ask.

Re: Dirac. I assume the hardware limits it to 96K.

With XT32, the number crunching is done inside the processor. Hence, the 48K sample rate limitation is lower with Audyssey. To get 96K with Audyssey, Marantz would have to blow a lot of money and real estate to achieve that reality.

I think there are two changes that may have some impacts on the 48 vs 96 kHz sampling decision D+M would consider, and make in future:

1) Number crunching: That was before the availability of the MultEQ apps ($20 and $200 versions). With the apps, Audyssey filters are also calculated/created by the external devices and then uploaded to the processor, just like DL. Audyssey uses FIR only, whereas DL uses both FIR and IIR filters, as they claimed they wanted to leverage the best of both types.

FIR by nature uses more resources, as minidsp cited: "An FIR filter requires more computation time on the DSP and more memory. The DSP chip therefore needs to be more powerful." in their article on FIR vs IIR.

2) Once the number crunching is done, filters uploaded to the device, the device's DSPs still have to implement the filters and executive them to do their job, so DSP power is still, as you mentioned, a factor. However, since D+M have now upgraded their DSP chips from the ADSP-21573 to 21593 that is much more powerful, at least if you compare their DMIPs, the 21593's double that of the 21573. The same DSP chip is used across the line from the X3800H to A1H and AV10. I don't know if D+M upgraded the chip because of their anticipation for the DLBC and ART.

Regardless of their reasons for the upgrade, if they now can take advantage of the upcoming ART, they should be able to run Audyssey at up to 96 kHz. They may not do it though because they know full well the 48 kHz vs 96 kHz if just a psychological thing that has no audible effects in theory, and most users of Audyssey won't make their purchase decision on this anyway, and those who do will likely pay for the DL licenses.

In conclusion, he found no human that he tested could discern the difference between 24-48K and 24-192K. It also contains compressed versions of the same songs that he recorded. Logic aside, the question comes up often.

Not only that the question comes up often, the same arguments back and forth, often senseless, come along with it every time too.

 

[PJ 1]

Let me ask you about the Amp10. From Gene´s review in Audioholics, it seems that from numbers, the thing is a monster supplying a lot of very clean power. My guess is that it can probably drive your R11 without a sweat. How hard have you pushed the amp in terms of used channels and watts pumping on your speakers?
Historically, Marantz has produced AV and amp gear that heats up a bit, so how´s the Amp10 in that regard? I guess the AV10 will not have heat issues and may just get warm to the touch.


At least in this case, the aesthetic factor of the in walls is combined with good performance...

Sorry, these were the T Series on-walls not the in-walls. I liked my GoldenEar SuperSat 60s better. Lol.

 

[SoundVideo]

I think there are two changes that may have some impacts on the 48 vs 96 kHz sampling decision D+M would consider, and make in future:

1) Number crunching: That was before the availability of the MultEQ apps ($20 and $200 versions). With the apps, Audyssey filters are also calculated/created by the external devices and then uploaded to the processor, just like DL. Audyssey uses FIR only, whereas DL uses both FIR and IIR filters, as they claimed they wanted to leverage the best of both types.

FIR by nature uses more resources, as minidsp cited: "An FIR filter requires more computation time on the DSP and more memory. The DSP chip therefore needs to be more powerful." in their article on FIR vs IIR.

2) Once the number crunching is done, filters uploaded to the device, the device's DSPs still have to implement the filters and executive them to do their job, so DSP power is still, as you mentioned, a factor. However, since D+M have now upgraded their DSP chips from the ADSP-21573 to 21593 that is much more powerful, at least if you compare their DMIPs, the 21593's double that of the 21573. The same DSP chip is used across the line from the X3800H to A1H and AV10. I don't know if D+M upgraded the chip because of their anticipation for the DLBC and ART.

Regardless of their reasons for the upgrade, if they now can take advantage of the upcoming ART, they should be able to run Audyssey at up to 96 kHz. They may not do it though because they know full well the 48 kHz vs 96 kHz if just a psychological thing that has no audible effects in theory, and most users of Audyssey won't make their purchase decision on this anyway, and those who do will likely pay for the DL licenses.


Not only that the question comes up often, the same arguments back and forth, often senseless, come along with it every time too.

Great point on the ability to run Audyssey at up to 96 kHz. I bet you are right. "Not only that the question comes up often". The topic used to come up a lot with technically driven customers. 10-12 years ago, it was THE reason why several people wanted Anthem's ARC!?

Re: DSP choice. Don't forget about the economy of scale as well as lower NRE costs. I used to be a semiconductor back-end process engineer (later I was a semiconductor sales engineer.) Volume matters. If you standardize, have volume, and if you are a smart negotiator, you get amazing "ship and debits" with crushing prices. With most semi-brands, the ship and debits can give you pricing well below 1/2 price. I could stare at the system and see many supplier paying far less than others. All because of their volume and as importantly, how they negotiated (you need to let the semi vendor worry you might spec in a different brand).

An interesting tidbit, the 8805 additional channel count only happened because of the higher MIP ADSP chips. As in, it was delayed because they needed more power chips. That seems obvious. But added channel count in combo with room correction techniques are tied together.

 

[peng]

Great point on the ability to run Audyssey at up to 96 kHz. I bet you are right. "Not only that the question comes up often". The topic used to come up a lot with technically driven customers. 10-12 years ago, it was THE reason why several people wanted Anthem's ARC!?

If it was 10-12 years ago, then you must be referring to the AVM/D series preamp/processors. The MRX avrs run ARC up to 48 kHz like D+M's, not sure about now, they may do 96 kHz, just not sure.

Re: DSP choice. Don't forget about the economy of scale as well as lower NRE costs. I used to be a semiconductor back-end process engineer (later I was a semiconductor sales engineer.) Volume matters. If you standardize, have volume, and if you are a smart negotiator, you get amazing "ship and debits" with crushing prices. With most semi-brands, the ship and debits can give you pricing well below 1/2 price. I could stare at the system and see many supplier paying far less than others. All because of their volume and as importantly, how they negotiated (you need to let the semi vendor worry you might spec in a different brand).

An interesting tidbit, the 8805 additional channel count only happened because of the higher MIP ADSP chips.

Of course, that's why they use the same one across the model line from the 3800 and C50 up. The previous models do use 2 DSPs for the higher models such as the 6700 and 8015 vs the single one for the 3000/4000 Denon and 6000/7000 Marantz. Same deal with the DAC, OPA, volume chips.

 

[PJ 1]

Sure. If someone is in the PHX metro area, come over and help. I am in the North Scottsdale area. I'm flying to MN to freeze mid-February for a wedding. I could grab my ABX box and pack it back to MN. We could also drag each stack to another room. Or, we could drag the stack to another person's home around the PHX metro. As I said earlier, room acoustics matter.

The "helping" part of the equation is mostly needed for motivation. Plus, they are heavy, and my 58-year-old back isn't appreciating it as much.

I'm from MN. Duluth. Who gets married in MN in Feb?!? Did they not know AZ is "open"? Lol. (Congratulations to them!)

I'm very interested in hearing about those Kefs with the AV/Amp 10s. I am looking at the Ref 3 Metas for a good 2ch. But the allure of a 5.2.2 "theater" is always present and I couldn't swing the Ref series for all those channels. But the Kef R series Metas get great reviews from users and magazines.

Regarding your friend with the CD and sampling rate, I've personally never been part of any final mastering session where anyone mentioned sample rates. There are specific digital production masters for each platform that focus on that. Apple like many, has very specific processes that requires certain certifications. Getting the max impact before distortion without hearing the compression we use is what we focus on in studio.

I'm not surprised he wasn't able to find anyone that could discern a difference in any type of testing. (Blind, double blind, sighted etc.) These discussions regarding sample rate for sounds recorded with very low resolution detracts from usability conversations that would better inform a purchasing decision. Do you really want to hear Autotune and Beat Detective fixing your favorite artist?

 

[SoundVideo]

I'm from MN. Duluth. Who gets married in MN in Feb?!? Did they not know AZ is "open"? Lol. (Congratulations to them!)

I'm very interested in hearing about those Kefs with the AV/Amp 10s. I am looking at the Ref 3 Metas for a good 2ch. But the allure of a 5.2.2 "theater" is always present and I couldn't swing the Ref series for all those channels. But the Kef R series Metas get great reviews from users and magazines.

Regarding your friend with the CD and sampling rate, I've personally never been part of any final mastering session where anyone mentioned sample rates. There are specific digital production masters for each platform that focus on that. Apple like many, has very specific processes that requires certain certifications. Getting the max impact before distortion without hearing the compression we use is what we focus on in studio.

I'm not surprised he wasn't able to find anyone that could discern a difference in any type of testing. (Blind, double blind, sighted etc.) These discussions regarding sample rate for sounds recorded with very low resolution detracts from usability conversations that would better inform a purchasing decision. Do you really want to hear Autotune and Beat Detective fixing your favorite artist?

As to who gets married in Feb, someone who is trying to save money at the expense of their guests. Lol

He recorded all of the material, and he even had several industry sponsors. He made maybe a couple hundred disks. That shows how much people care about the topic. He wasn't my "friend". Rather, a person I reached out to in my quest to understand what was going on in the blind. Not to belabor the topic, from the mid-90s to around 2010, I thought I could hear all kinds of things that were between my ears. And, debated accordingly. Then, I went out of my way in an attempt to figure out what the reality was and why. I've concluded that the reality is a blend between both camps (much closer to things sounding the same than farther apart.)