Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[levimax]

It seems to me what you are identifying is different levels of deliberation.

Some of our decisions involve less deliberation. We grab that bag of chips at the checkout counter because, hey, I feel like eating those chips.

That doesn't make it "irrational" though. It would only be irrational if taking that action would not in fact fulfill that desire, or perhaps it would somehow thwart some overriding goals you have for yourself. Like if you have just found out from the doctor your arteries are clogged and if you want to avoid dying from a heart attack you need to cut out eating all that junk, and you truly want to become healthy, then grabbing the bag of chips could be irrational with respect to that more important goal.

But I don't see how that is likely the case for something like wanting a better TV, or enjoying vinyl records or whatever. So long as they increase your pleasure and add to your well being, without being a net loss in terms of wider goals you have for your life.

Hey Matt, I agree with you and in fact I don't think that "rational" and "irrational" are appropriate without taking the concepts of "Economic Utility" into account.

Utility in Economics Explained: Types and Measurement

Utility is an economic term referring to the satisfaction received from consuming a good or service.

www.investopedia.com

In economics, utility is a term used to determine the worth or value of a good or service. More specifically, utility is the total satisfaction or benefit derived from consuming a good or service. Economic theories based on rational choice usually assume that consumers will strive to maximize their utility.

 

[MattHooper]

Sure, mating with as many individuals of the opposite sex as possible is a rational choice, as that leads to better optimization of the objective function for the species, resulting in better adaptation and a greater chance of survival.

Are you familiar with the fact/value divide? Those are facts about how things survive, but why value survival? Why would you want to survive in the first place? It will inevitably lead to some preference/value. Survival is a means to an end, not an end to itself. Why would you or anyone care about surviving, if there was nothing pleasurable or supportive of our well-being found in being alive? You are going to incorporate some squishy subjectivity - what it feels like, and if you like it - no matter which way you turn.

Unfortunately, audiophilia doesn’t help facilitate the same result, and therefore is irrational. Vinyl or digital

Well examining rationality as to how it enhances survival seems to have really missed the point, and rendered much of what we do to be "irrational." That's a pretty untenable account for rational action. Building a deck for your backyard so you can sit out in the summer may not aid your or the species survival, but it would be silly to cast building a deck (or renovating your house to have new features you'd like) as "irrational."

(Not to mention trying to mate with as many partners as possible wouldn’t be rational in any number of scenarios. You can’t disregard other facts about human psychology and social needs. Try it when married. Or if your species is threatening to become overpopulated with regard to what the environment can support, etc)

 

[BobbyTimmons]

"Vinyl gets wreaked when compared to other analog sources."

Perhaps correct, but at the same time All these analogue sources get smoked by well recorded mixed and mastered Digital nowadays and have been so the last 10 years or so.

The problem is the vast majority of digital nowadays is not that by design.

 

[Galliardist]

I am serious. I, and almost everyone I know who is diagnosed with depression, is also diagnosed with anxiety. They just call mine “generalized anxiety disorder.” The two are highly linked, though the mechanism isn’t really understood as well for anxiety as it is depression (which also isn’t really understood to well, though I luckily seem to have depression from serotonin issues, which is the most easily treated). Anyway, anxiety, for me first manifests as an inability concentrate. In a sense my senses overwhelm me. It happens a lot with shopping. Grocery stores are a bitch. I just can’t even see what I am looking for. One of the cognitive skills they teach is to simply start listing obvious things (color, shape, etc.). Meditation (grounding yourself in your breath largely and being mindful of your thoughts) is also used. I also use meds for the anxiety.

I’m 51. I have had depression and anxiety since I was around 14. I only sought treatment when I was 48. Why? Largely because we see the idea if you are depressed or have other mental health issues you should just tough it out. Just try harder. Other people have it tough and they get by just fine. Blah, blah, blah. When in fact, there is a chemical imbalance in my brain. It’s kinda like telling someone who can’t reach the top shelf they should just man up about it and get taller rather than using a step stool. I spent 34 years trying to be taller. What a waist of time.

But really my point was they are all tools. Sertraline, meditation, step stools etc. We use tools to accomplish the tasks we want. And see playing a record (a combination of mind setting and technological choice) as being a tool. If that is what it takes, right then for someone to connect deeply to the music, since they know if they stream they will just surf, then great! There is no need to make a judgement about them because that’s what they need. I have no ideas what is going on in their brains.

I'm going to consider myself put in my place for what I said, but I don't think my point was invalid overall, because the vast majority of people using the idea that vinyl helps them to listen more intently are not suffering from anxiety or depression.

That doesn't mean that it's less valid for them as a tool,but as a random thought, there is no difference between a turntable and a streamer where you don't have the remote in your hand, in this regard. You said "and technological choice", of course, and it is perhaps the combination of distance and everything else that is the key, in which case I was concentrating on the wrong aspect anyway.

 

[Galliardist]

UK vinyl sales at the highest level since 1990

Sales of vinyl LPs continued to rise, with Taylor Swift's 1989 becoming this year's best-selling record.

www.bbc.com

UK sales of vinyl LPs have hit their highest level since 1990 as the revival of the physical music market continues. Sales rose by 11.7% to 5.9 million units, increasing for the 16th year in a row, according to the British Phonographic Industry (BPI) trade group.

The UK population is about 20% of the US, and vinyl sales by unit are up to a bit over one seventh. I think we can expect UK sales to grow further in the next few years.

Top sellers - Taylor Swift (surprise!) and that awful new Rolling Stones album (that's subjective), so I suspect collectors are a part of the UK boom as well, as these are collectable albums as much as anything else.

Yes, I do know collectors still play their LPs.

This places the UK sales growth a bit further along the line than I thought when I posted about UK sales a few months ago.

The HMV thing is interesting, as one thing I noted about HMV stores around the country when I visited earlier this year was that they weren't selling that much music, digital or vinyl.

I also noted a few new hifi shops when I was there, reversing that slide which dated back to before I left. Several had Rega turntables in the front windows. I did venture into one store, and I was asked what turntable I owned just before they lost interest in me...

 

[Galliardist]

The problem is the vast majority of digital nowadays is not that by design.

Maybe not the majority. You forget that popular music releases are actually in the minority, but are the visible ones that sell more. Look at classical, jazz, "world", proper folk, specialist music and digital is doing fine, thanks.

 

[Galliardist]

I think you are forgetting something.

I am a person that owns vinyl. I have owned vinyl since the late 70s.
I only rarely listen to it, due to the numerous issues and inconvenience of it.
I do not hate it, nor think it sounds "Bad" or anything like that....In fact at times it can sound nearly perfect in most key ways.

I also use CD and Streaming a lot. I am quite familiar with everything about vinyl and have owned far more vinyl than CDs if I take in my entire collection since I first started into music.

I guess, being honest, the way I see many vinyl listeners, are people that are not being completely sincere, but feel the need to manufacture reasons that vinyl is so much more engaging and so on. More like they make up excuses or semi false reasons they use vinyl, to get around the faults of vinyl, and give it some semi magical quality, that in reality never existed over the first few decades I was VERY into vinyl.

In other words, it is some revisionist thinking, besides the small vinyl fad that is also going on at the same time.
Back in my main vinyl days, we longed for ANYTHING that could better the sound and issues of vinyl.
Today those issues are downplayed, maybe for nostalgia, or who knows what.

My issue I have with all this going on are based on, the SAME EXACT thing vanished in the 90s for a reason, and those reasons have not been altered with vinyl in the last decade or what have you, it is the SAME product with the same flaws. Nothing has changed.

My argument is that it never really disappeared. It always had that place in the culture. People kept buying turntables in similar numbers, at least in the US where figures were available. The second hand market continued all the way through. There were always audiophiles arguing the superiority of vinyl in their own ways. There were always record collectors. There were always people who did not want to give up their investment in their record collection.

There is certainly no fad. To put this in perspective, the biggest "craze" I can think of is the 1890s bicycle craze: that lasted well under a decade, we are now into year 16 of growth in the vinyl medium. We can argue about reasons and logic, I can take this extreme position of no renaissance, but none of us can deny the fact that this has been going on way too long to be a "fad".

 

[Galliardist]

I see that two of the hifi stores in Sydney near to me have started selling LPs. That;s new.

 

[Old Grey Punk]

LPs give a sense of permanence in an increasingly impermanent and intangible digital world. I'll admit I get a feeling of satisfaction, and even calm, from just sitting looking at my 1500 LPs all stacked neatly on their shelves. And since I've been buying those LPs since the late '70s, there's also a fair few nostalgic memories tied up in them. Add to that the oft stated but true fact that LPs are something we can physically own, are in some ways a physical embodiment of the fruits of our efforts, then it's not so surprising that more and more people are building their own collections.

Perhaps the best way of quantifying this is that vinyl is not just about playing the music, it's listening to the music allied to a whole lot more, which is something that digital simply cannot compete with, because that is 'just' listening to music.

 

[Puddingbuks]

Perhaps the best way of quantifying this is that vinyl is not just about playing the music, it's listening to the music allied to a whole lot more, which is something that digital simply cannot compete with, because that is 'just' listening to music.

Streaming also has a whole lot more. Music suggestions, links with other artists/bands/composers, background info, lyrics, statistics, building and sharing playlists.

 

[Galliardist]

LPs give a sense of permanence in an increasingly impermanent and intangible digital world. I'll admit I get a feeling of satisfaction, and even calm, from just sitting looking at my 1500 LPs all stacked neatly on their shelves. And since I've been buying those LPs since the late '70s, there's also a fair few nostalgic memories tied up in them. Add to that the oft stated but true fact that LPs are something we can physically own, are in some ways a physical embodiment of the fruits of our efforts, then it's not so surprising that more and more people are building their own collections.

Perhaps the best way of quantifying this is that vinyl is not just about playing the music, it's listening to the music allied to a whole lot more, which is something that digital simply cannot compete with, because that is 'just' listening to music.

For me, listening to music is the most important thing, though.
As for permanence, why is it vinyl that is permanent and not the various silver discs? There is something more to vinyl, isn't there? My permanent collection is CDs now, I moved on from vinyl. i find very few people think of CDs as you think of vinyl.

Oddly, perhaps, my vinyl experience had a lot of impermanence to it because much of it came through the Manchester Record Library and discovering different music in that way. Maybe I just never picked up that significance that a lot of people who stuck with vinyl did.

 

[Galliardist]

Streaming also has a whole lot more. Music suggestions, links with other artists/bands/composers, background info, lyrics, statistics, building and sharing playlists.

Back in the day, we earned those music suggestions, discovered the links with other artists over time. Statistics didn't matter. We did things by word of mouth. Punks and such did it via duplicated zines and small clubs. Other genres did it via trusted record shops and dedicated nightclubs and DJs.

Quite frankly, it often seems all too easy these days when the next link in the chain is just a click or tap away. The whole lot more doesn't seem to weigh against the cultural significance of the LP record. Though I'm not in that game these days, and I think new people to the audiophile experience should start with good digital before deciding what to do next, I do think that that cultural weight counts for a lot.

Over time, some aspect of music via streaming will gain cultural weight as well. It will catch us by surprise when it happens. After all, who could have forseen the Apple vs Android phone wars and how much that would mean to people until the bile started?

 

[Puddingbuks]

@Galliardist I’m from 72, so I also have lived through a lot of changes in the audio and music world. CD was a revelation to me, because vinyl sounded worse (dust, cracks, only had low fi record players) and deteriorated further over time.

Back in the day I was limited by what was offered on radio (tape recorder) and what friends/family had available.

Downloading on napster / kazaa and streaming did broaden my music collection enormously.

Plugging in my 2 Kef LS60 in the powersockets and I’m done. Fabulous sound and everything I need on my NAS, tidal or internet radio.

I’ve owned 700-800 CDs and hundreds of DVDs. All sold or thrown away. No regrets.

 

[beagleman]

At it's basic level you may be right, but I think what you're not taking into account is this, and I'll use my own experience as an example:
I've been listening to vinyl since the late 1970s, and for decades vinyl playback consisted of chucking records onto any old crappy turntable through cheap equipment and speakers. I'd never heard of conical, eliptical, micro-line etc, such things as alignment, VTF, VTA etc etc, and I'd certainly never considered cleaning anything. It's taken me 50 years and a not inconsiderable investment in terms of both money and knowledge to arrive at my current system, and here's the thing, when I play vinyl LPs to friends who's memory of vinyl is still mired in the 'old days' they are astounded by the sound, to the extent that a few have 'made the mistake'(!) of buying their own turntables.

I certainly wouldn't try and make claims for vinyl compared to digital, but I do think there's a significant difference between how a lot of people listen to vinyl today compared to how most listened to it back then, (especially now that access to 'how to' via the internet is so much easier now than access to decent 'how to' was in the 'old days')

Mostly good, except I did have fairly good turntables and carts from the start. Even as a teen I had very good equipment, as that was my only hobby at the time.

I still have my first DUAL turntable, and honestly it sounds great still with its Ortofon cart.
I have heard more expensive tables and have owned a few in the 90s, but got rid of them mainly due to lack of use. And the fact they really did not seem ALL THAT much better than my Nostalgic Dual table....

I always did clean my records and still pull the old Dual out every few months for fun.
See I do believe it sounds quite good still, so not basing any faults on older cheapish equipment, or memories of old junk tables, but merely the flaws OF the actual vinyl. I was bothered by noise, and imperfections back in my young days, but oddly, not so much NOW.

So oddly I feel it sounds almost better today than back when I got into it. So I am not mired in the old days, NOR think it sounds bad in any way, but just for the amount of issues and inconvenience just do not "Get it" .......or something...not sure what this is about now...lmao

 

[deweydm]

“But the sound of digital music, as every vinyl fan knows, is not, and never will be, half so rich and warm as the sound of an LP….” - Guardian op ed.

Well, not every “vinyl fan”. Yikes.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Vinyl gets wreaked when compared to other analog sources.

Have you looked at the objective wow and flutter data and the frequency anomalies of cassette and open reel tape machines? Take a look in the tape forums and old issues of objective magazines in worldradiohistory . Then you will see the quite mediocre results there too. Yes some few NAKs were good , but consumer cassettesplayback where never good

 

[IPunchCholla]

Hmm, all I said was that vinyl renaissance wasn't based on a rational decision process. Do you disagree?

I don’t think I can agree or disagree until I know the reasons people are buying vinyl. They may be doing so for rational reasons. I certainly believe I by records for rational reasons given the framework in which I operate and the goals I am trying to achieve.

 

[IPunchCholla]

Sure, mating with as many individuals of the opposite sex as possible is a rational choice, as that leads to better optimization of the objective function for the species, resulting in better adaptation and a greater chance of survival. Unfortunately, audiophilia doesn’t help facilitate the same result, and therefore is irrational. Vinyl or digital

It’s actually a terrible strategy for women.

Beyond that it doesn’t render all activity outside of survival irrational: Consider the archaeological theory of waste. Through the human past, in every culture we are aware of, as human populations approach the current carrying capacity of their environment (the population their environment can support given their current technology), the amount of waste (which is everything not directly related to breeding and getting offspring to reproductive age) increases. The closer you get to to population capacity the more the waste increases. This seems to be a mechanism in which to create slack in the system so that when there is a downward spike in carrying capacity it is less likely to cause total collapse of the system. It also seems that certain types of activities (religious constructs, ritual, and increasing intensifying technology) are selected for in this increase of waste as well, meaning that there are likely to be better and worse types of waste, again indicating rationality even within the waste system.

Of course my archaeology knowledge is 30 years out of date.

 

[egellings]

Of course you don't think like a creationist in your work. That's the point - outside of your work, you should want to avoid making the same type of conceptual mistakes as a creationist would. And I explained why your conceptual mistake mirrors that of the creationist...in regard to your ideas of rationality.

So...are you going to actually point out what is incorrect in my analysis? Or just imply I'm wrong without bothering?



Ok so playing records isn't rational. And then maybe a preference for digital isn't rational.

So is nothing rational?

Can you give me an example of a rational choice, and what makes it rational?

...discretionary

 

[MattHooper]

...discretionary

If instead of just "having a choice" you are alluding to a well considered choice, I infer you are suggesting something like what I wrote before:

But I don't see how that is likely the case for something like wanting a better TV, or enjoying vinyl records or whatever. So long as they increase your pleasure and add to your well being, without being a net loss in terms of wider goals you have for your life.