Harman is working on a new IEM target curve

[Mad_Economist]

Fair cop, we do only get half the story in online forums. It would be nice to see two sided discussions more in line with podcasts between you all, without a bunch of the preconceived bias that seems to be there on forums and discords.

We are - well, I am, at least - always eager to get folks with strong opinions who'd like to have a friendly chat on the podcast, for what it's worth. I'm very much hoping to get Sean on again (well, I'm always hoping for a chance to talk to Sean, I kind of embarrassed myself at CanJam following him around like a lost puppy for a bit), particularly to discuss some of the ideas about target curves out there. I don't agree with 100% of his takes on the matter, but the fact of the matter is that he's the single best qualified person in the world on headphone targets, and it's always a joy to hear his thoughts, even if, after consideration, they make me go "Eh, but what about..."

The biggest issue when you look at all of this as a consumer is the inability to trust anyone affiliated with a storefront, or company's that actively make* headphones. Of course that's just the modern world, end of the day we can only go and buy what's available and hope that we can try stuff directly instead of relying only on reviewers and squigs.

Ultimately, I'd suggest trusting no one. Brands and stores have an obvious potential for ulterior motives, but even with the best intentions in the world, all research is going to be flawed and limited. Gaetan Lorho was an unbiased and very good engineer, but his target isn't something you or I probably want in a headphone - that isn't an indictment of his work (in my opinion, his paper should be mandatory reading for anyone wanting to get into the questions of headphone target response), but it's an example of where good work by an unbiased party didn't result in something we can take as gospel.

That doesn't, of course, mean that parties with incentives are any more trustworthy, but ideally I'd like to be in a position where people don't have to trust me, or the firm I contract with, or anybody else: I'd rather, as Sean has, make as much of the underpinning work and reasoning public and evident as possible, so that people can come to their own conclusions, and take or leave my input as they see fit.

 

[Galliardist]

I don't see how accusations of racism aimed at members of this forum, fostering an "us and them" attitude, or exposing some of that Discord conversation publicly actually helps anybody.

By all means, let's be robust in matters of audio, of course. But there is no need to be more than that.

 

[solderdude]

I assure you, I'm far more disagreeable in person - @Resolve is more timid in person, but @Sean Olive and I banter quite a bit.

Re: @GaryH stalking my discord, that's my discord (unaffiliated to Headphones.com, other than folks from said being welcome there), Todd Welti is in there, and Sean has a standing invitation to join if he'd ever like to (and believe you me, I've tried, I'd love to have him in there).

I'd also do a bit here about how overwhelmingly positive essentially every person in said Discord is about Harman and Sean's work, but frankly I don't feel like that's going to be a productive dialogue.

It is funny how GaryH always quotes all kinds of tweets, and never forgets to mention credentials, of Oratory1990, yet he is a prominent figure/part of your 'cesspool'.

I agree with Amir that it is good to have 1 standard as then results are more comparable.
Alas there are multiple standards and more will be coming.
Confusing as hell when also various targets are introduced into that mix.
I understand the desire though.

It may be clear as day for folks who really understand measurements, the fixtures and standards used, and fully understand what a target really is. And also realize that your ears may likely be different and understand the need to only use it as a 'starting' point and also know what filters they should play with.

The problem is that the vast majority of people don't grasp all of this and this makes it confusing.
1 standard + 1 target makes sense with clear instructions on how to interpret and adjust filters (most just copy pre-chewed settings and call it a day).
Alas we are already past that and bombarding 1 specific type of fixture and its results as gospel is not going to ever happen.

I welcome the desire to improve on the science as that needs to evolve. It just does not make it clearer for the general public.

 

[Chocomel]

The utter gall of 'Resolve' to reply with "Is anyone surprised at this point? This is what they do over there." Meanwhile, this is what they do over there (him and his headphones.com cabal in their 'secret' Discord server behind Sean's back), reposting (and agreeing) with glee childish anti-Harman IE nonsense from SBAF:

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Repeatedly referring to Harman disparagingly as 'haram', which is not only immature and disrespectful, but pretty problematic (frankly racist) coming from a bunch of (mostly) white guys:

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What a complete cesspool. Then of course there's the flagrant misinformation and denigration of Harman's IE research disseminated by their business partners. There may be a small but loud minority of anti-Harman IE pseudoscientists on here, but it's pervasive and pernicious with headphones.com and their affiliates, and comes from the top.

Posting it in shitposting channel lol.

 

[Travis]

That's is too much of a moving target. Harman research is based on a standard listening room, adhering to standards that most studio control rooms adhere to.

I thought there were no standards regarding studio control rooms? Some have concluded that this lack of standards result in overall deficient recordings produced by the industry.

I thought both Dr. Toole and Dr. Olive have been advocating for some type of standards for control rooms for many years

 

[D!sco]

Great. The IE curve was an afterthought before apple exploded the market.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

The usual issue with standards:

Standards

xkcd.com

 

[Galliardist]

@Mad_Economist

I appreciate the like for my post requesting civil behaviour.

I hope it means that I am not, then, wasting my breath asking that you in turn need to be the responsible adult in your own room. Whatever that behaviour was, we are not now going to unsee it.

I’ll leave it at that.

 

[dasdoing]

Sooo it seems Sean Olive agrees with Crinacle after all and following that Harman IEM target was not the correct one after all.
In an interview where both Crin and Sean discussed the target he already acknowledged the target was not given much attention in the first place.

The other Harman targets also changed a bit from the day of the first target because of increased insight in the matter.

I mean, as a subjective target it needs to be updated forever. music and taste change

 

[ahofer]

I mean, as a subjective target it needs to be updated forever. music and taste change

I suppose, given generations growing up with earphones, hearing loss will also alter the preferred target curve.

 

[dasdoing]

I suppose, given generations growing up with earphones, hearing loss will also alter the preferred target curve.

lol. They are not even closely listening as loud as the walkman/diskman generation. We wouldn't care about the outside world. Nowadays they just want background music

 

[ahofer]

They are not even closely listening as loud as the walkman/diskman generation

I'm not sure how you could possibly know that, but perhaps. It seems like hearing loss is increasing, especially in younger folks.

The global prevalence of sensorineural hearing impairment was first reported by the World Health Organization (WHO) in 1985.1 At that time, 42 million people (approximately 1% of the world’s population) were estimated to have moderate to profound (or disabling) hearing impairment. By 2011, the estimate rose to 360 million, of whom 32 million were children younger than 15 years.2 The most recent WHO estimate suggests that approximately 466 million people (or 6.1% of the world’s population) were living with disabling hearing loss in 2018.3 This estimate is projected to rise to 630 million by 2030 and to over 900 million by 2050. Approximately 90% of people with moderate to profound hearing impairment reside in low- and middle-income countries. The Global Burden of Disease study, which incorporated mild and unilateral hearing loss, estimated that the population with hearing loss rose from 1.2 billion (17.2%) in 2008 to 1.4 billion (18.7%) in 2017.4 This trend has become a serious public health issue that deserves an appropriate and well-coordinated global action.

 

[Andysu]

ho

As I have said before, we need one target and that is that. It doesn't need to be perfect (even if it can be). We just need one that the listener then modifies to taste -- just like we do with speakers and target room curve. Folks keep agitating for new targets so not surprised that Sean is searching for one but in my opinion, no more work was needed.

how can sound be taste ? taste ? makes no sense at all , sound is tasteless it's not food or drink
its a case of does it sound too harsh to many , harsh is going to be within certain frequency band once reaches a certain SPL dB
try playing star trek 2 1982 , on dvd opening titles does the sound of horns or other instruments sound harsh make you turn it down ?
do a video on it

but no , sound audio isn't a taste , yes you or i have different taste for food , yes , otherwise its like putting too much pepper on the bass and everyone spits it out , lol

 

[nerdemoji]

ho

how can sound be taste ? taste ? makes no sense at all , sound is tasteless it's not food or drink
its a case of does it sound too harsh to many , harsh is going to be within certain frequency band once reaches a certain SPL dB
try playing star trek 2 1982 , on dvd opening titles does the sound of horns or other instruments sound harsh make you turn it down ?
do a video on it

but no , sound audio isn't a taste , yes you or i have different taste for food , yes , otherwise its like putting too much pepper on the bass and everyone spits it out , lol

Hrtf that’s I need to say

 

[Andysu]

Hrtf that’s I need to say

yeah , hrtf , yes that , hrtf indeed very much so , hrtf , so when last time you played , star trek the wrath of khan 1982 , dvd not the 7.1 remix
i bet most here didn't notice the missing music sound effect that lasts about 1. of second

 

[alumnicesar]

I assume in person the Resolve's and Blaine's of the world are a bit less disagreeable, so Sean probably doesn't know about the negativity being pushed by hp.com crew in general towards his work. It is rather disheartening seeing tilted DF becoming the default on most squig sites now just because hp.com and crin wants desperately to make 5128 the new standard.

Agreed, I don't take any df tilt review seriously. That target sucks

 

[Andysu]

Agreed, I don't take any df tilt review seriously. That target sucks

what need is a programmable PEQ 20,038 bands with 1st stage up close speaker correction , which doesn't yet exist , that dirac live art Eq , rubbish waste of time same applies to all other autoEq it doesn't even address in same as sine wave tone , one sine wave tone at a time and that's 20,000 Peq 20Hz to 20KHz , but needs to go below 20Hz as well

speakers even JBL have crooked frequency , processor and amp with a freq sweep is about the only part that is smooth curved or flat , sigh , no let me sighhhh again ,
audio industry is a scam of whole snake oil with these present rubbish autoEQ , 1/3 that hardly does it , 1/48 , keep trying , sigh , i just wait for manufacturer to make cheap so everyone can buy a 20,120 PEQ band filters of 32 channels that has multi sub layer programming and memory for lots of music or movies and can or have a card placed inside the special PEQ as all music or movies may sound too hash at times , in middle highs due to ear canal sensitivity and a lot , lot , lot more besides all that

 

[solderdude]

I mean, as a subjective target it needs to be updated forever. music and taste change

But reality doesn't.
Even though there is a preference part in the target which may change a bit there should not be a discrepancy between perceived tonal balance between speakers and IEMs (within the tolerance band of it).

In the IEM target case there simply is a discrepancy and that should be resolved by an updated curve on that standard fixture.
Downside of changing targets, as happened a few times already, is that to compare things measured in the past that it won't be comparable any more and one needs to know which exact target is and was used and maybe even convert or show both targets (even more confusing).

Such is the problem with targets (not standards, those did not change) that are updated because they turn out to be inaccurate.

 

[Andysu]

Agreed, I don't take any df tilt review seriously. That target sucks

i agree , absolutely agree

 

[Andysu]

Most will just take it as it is, just like it is now with auto eq and other ready made solutions.

And it's not a bad idea. Having those 20 band "personal" curves with insignificant changes and pretending you got it just right needs at least sanity check with blind testing. And testing for preference, not for a difference.

i can expand this in a video a ranting video , i notice this issue and only few electronics can ether make it worse or better or some other device auto adjust it ,
i be doing live video within few minutes and it often can run for 9hrs or 16hrs or rarely 24hr , i like see , sean olive do that and explain all this while actually showing with all the gear , otherwise , fed up reading white papers

live now
edit private now