why do 7" drivers have better soundstage and presence than 5" drivers ?

[JimA84]

In any event speaker design hss always been a compromise between the number of drivers and the downside of crossover networks.

I suppose you could create a super speaker with a digital crossover with a thousand bins with a driver perfectly optimized for each frequency range.

In the real (affordable) world we are faced with two, three or four way speakers with passive crossovers.

The problem with multi way speakers is that crossovers tend to introduce artifacts in frequency bands that color or even ruin accuracy. It's desirable to position the crossover in a frequency range that is relatively not noticeable in human hearing perception and musical content.

Many purists advocate two way speaker designs for this reason.

Unfortunately it's hard to get enough bass extension in a two way design without compromising transient response and midrange accuracy.

The use of a quality subwoofer is a good way to resolve this issue by eliminating the need for the main speakers to cover anything below around 80 Hz.

Thus you can use a smaller and lighter midbass driver that is fast and accurate.

Fortunately we currently have some very good subwoofers available from about $500 and up and some less than that if you're willing to give up the lowest octave.

Thus it would seem best to select a two way speaker with less bass extention and combine it with a really good subwoofer.

On the other hand my old system with 5 inch active monitors and ribbon tweerers produced exceptional sound at 100 dB and other than the physical vibration of low bass was quite adequate for music and home theater short of pipe organ or earthquake content.

 

[fpitas]

The problem with multi way speakers is that crossovers tend to introduce artifacts in frequency bands that color or even ruin accuracy. It's desirable to position the crossover in a frequency range that is relatively not noticeable in human hearing perception and musical content.

I disagree. The problem is that people botch the crossovers. No one is complaining about the Salon2, for example. A 4-way speaker with LR4 crossovers.

 

[audiofooled]

you are right in pointing out that freq graph of f5 anf f7 differ not only on the the low (expected from difference in woofer size) but also on the highs (unexpected because they have the same tweeter). the reason i still think the difference comes from the lows rather than the highs is because when i cut the high frequencies in youtube playback i still hear the wider soundstage on f7, this difference in sounstage only goes away when i cut the low frequencies in youtube playback
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They don't say anything about the microphone setup with regards to points of reference to each of the speakers tested. They are physically different heights so the large difference in high frequency response might be because they did not move the microphone setup for each set of speakers. Even if they did, the speakers may differ in off axis response so again, not only height of the microphones but polar response of each of the speakers would affect the results because of the reflections. I think in this case they did no favor to the F5.

Also, please don't mistake imaging and envelopment. Low frequencies do contribute to the perception of envelopment but have very little to do with imaging because at those frequencies loudspeakers are omnidirectional and response is very much room dependent so speakers with less extension would appear to be inferior and thin sounding. This is also one of the reasons why loudspeaker recordings in room and played over YT have no basis in fact.

 

[wwenze]

I have a recording of two speakers... In the recording they sound like, to put it in words, speaker A sounds like speaker B, speaker B sounds like speaker A

But in reality, speaker A sounds like speaker A, speaker B sounds like speaker B

 

[Chrispy]

Weird thread/premise with a youtube video as "evidence". Not like I care much of differences between these two particular speakers...

 

[amanieux]

Weird thread/premise with a youtube video as "evidence". Not like I care much of differences between these two particular speakers...

If you have real world experience of listening to two speakers size in the same family of products, please share if you did not experience such difference in soundstage/envelopement in favor of the larger size speaker then it may only be an artefact from microphone positionning or this particular room acoustic that favors sounstage in the 7" vs 5"

 

[Geert]

Before I would draw any conclusions from this video I would want to know if the microphones where realigned when switching monitors. If that happened, it could change the impact of room acoustics. If it did not, it could have on effect on the direct speaker sound being captured. In the intro of the video I see the microphones at different heights, but we can't tell if that footage was recording during the audio recordings.

 

[sigbergaudio]

In any event speaker design hss always been a compromise between the number of drivers and the downside of crossover networks.

I suppose you could create a super speaker with a digital crossover with a thousand bins with a driver perfectly optimized for each frequency range.

In the real (affordable) world we are faced with two, three or four way speakers with passive crossovers.

The problem with multi way speakers is that crossovers tend to introduce artifacts in frequency bands that color or even ruin accuracy. It's desirable to position the crossover in a frequency range that is relatively not noticeable in human hearing perception and musical content.

Many purists advocate two way speaker designs for this reason.

Unfortunately it's hard to get enough bass extension in a two way design without compromising transient response and midrange accuracy.

The use of a quality subwoofer is a good way to resolve this issue by eliminating the need for the main speakers to cover anything below around 80 Hz.

Thus you can use a smaller and lighter midbass driver that is fast and accurate.

Fortunately we currently have some very good subwoofers available from about $500 and up and some less than that if you're willing to give up the lowest octave.

Thus it would seem best to select a two way speaker with less bass extention and combine it with a really good subwoofer.

On the other hand my old system with 5 inch active monitors and ribbon tweerers produced exceptional sound at 100 dB and other than the physical vibration of low bass was quite adequate for music and home theater short of pipe organ or earthquake content.

I think it's interesting that you in the context of crossover design propose that building a 3-way speaker is difficult, but combining a 2-way speaker with a subwoofer will be perfectly fine.

 

[Mnyb]

Please don't treat recorded audio in a youtube video as information to be used for assessing sound quality of any kind it's in the category of not even wrong....

 

[fineMen]

The problem with multi way speakers is that crossovers tend to introduce artifacts in frequency bands that color or even ruin accuracy. It's desirable to position the crossover in a frequency range that is relatively not noticeable in human hearing perception and musical content.

Many purists advocate two way speaker designs for this reason.
...
On the other hand my old system with 5 inch active monitors and ribbon tweerers produced exceptional sound at 100 dB and other than the physical vibration of low bass was quite adequate for music and home theater short of pipe organ or earthquake content.

What kind of artifacts are you referring to? What does it mean, "relatively not noticably hearing musical content"?
What is a purist, pure with what? What kind of 2-way, size wise?

And then you have a 5" at 100dB falling short only confroned with earthquakes. And you mention the ribbon tweeter, which somehow suggests that x/over is pretty high. But bass loading ported/sealed isn't mentioned?

Single complication with a multi-way is the x/over complexity. Not all designers are made equal. And so, if you can sell a 2-way to the general public, who cares?

I came to accept 3+way for real high fidelity. As a proof of concept I designed a tiny but real 3-way 20x20x30cm^3 which has 9l of internal volume sealed for a 7" bass equalized and a 3.5"mid. It rather resembled my double 12" main monitors than what you call a delight for purists, a tiny 2-way namely. Time will tell if hifi goes completely down the drain or some remains of good engineering will be preserved.

 

[amanieux]

Please don't treat recorded audio in a youtube video as information to be used for assessing sound quality of any kind it's in the category of not even wrong....

if your real world experience (what you heard with your own ears) contradicts this assumption : "the slightly larger speaker in the same family of speakers have better soundstage and presence than the slightly lower size speaker" please share here, i agree it will be more valuable data than a audio recording that depends on mic characteristics and placement plus room acoustics ( please note that what was interesting to notice was that this video played back without lower frequencies (-12db EQ 125hz and below) no longer sound that different between adam f5 and f7)

 

[YSC]

please don't generalize and add unnecessary variables, i am comparing 2 speakers from the same brand and same family of product (adam f5 vs f7) who share a lot of these in common, main difference being woofer and box size

well they are not that simple, just single out directivity of the 2 speakers and it won't be the same, the directivity error in one or both of it can cause specific perceptual reflected sound which the delayed arrival of such sound affects our soundstage perception, not to say the tonal balance could be very different also. apparently same tweeter with same vendor don't always mean the balance will be the same in the tuning itself.

 

[amanieux]

well they are not that simple, just single out directivity of the 2 speakers and it won't be the same, the directivity error in one or both of it can cause specific perceptual reflected sound which the delayed arrival of such sound affects our soundstage perception, not to say the tonal balance could be very different also. apparently same tweeter with same vendor don't always mean the balance will be the same in the tuning itself.

you are righfully suggesting multiple paths that can explain the difference (directivity, tonal balance) but don't the fact that this difference goes away when replaying the video with a -12db equalisation 125hz and below help narrow down these hypothesis ?

 

[YSC]

you are righfully suggesting multiple paths that can explain the difference (directivity, tonal balance) but don't the fact that this difference goes away when replaying the video with a -12db equalisation 125hz and below help narrow down these hypothesis ?

no, cause directivity alone means how wide the speaker will project it's sound at given frequency, and that frequency which the driver starts beaming is controlled by it's size and the waveguide or lack of in it in the tweeter, so vendors even using the same tweeter, paring them with different woofers may or maynot change the crossover point to try mitigate that, and the "beam width" of the sound combined with the room it's placed in affects the percived soundstage and imaging a lot, typical is that a pair of speaker you listened to be very great and spacious, being put in you own room can be complete opposite

 

[fineMen]

no, cause directivity alone means how wide the speaker will project it's sound at given frequency, and that frequency ...

If one stirrs up a problem here as to justify a sloppy (I think so) comparision, it should acknowledge the many parameters that are or not mentioned in this case. The driver's size regularly determines the center to center distance of a 2-way. That will for sure, together with the maybe different x/over topology, alter the interference pattern introduced by ceiling and floor reflections. The latter can reside within or outside of the precedence window, interfering with lateral reflections again. And so forth.

We have no data on the properties of the two driver's in question. Smaller often means cheaper because people expect that which conversely means a cheaper, less sophisticated motor. Another is the surround, which changes naturally with the cone's size which again shifts the possible, quite destructive surround resonace in frequency. Or, the smaller size may have lend a hand to avoiding said resonance.

Just two specimen, and a generalized statement (question?) is formulated. Not 'scientific' in particular. As far as I see no effort was taken to address the internal and external conditions of this presentation. That ain't that analytical, at least in my book.

Of course such question generating YT videos are very interesting for people who find entertainment in anytime scrutinizing the very stereo of theirs. Diffuse wording helps. Many look at the remaining problems with speakers with less desire for entertainment, but get more serious about it. Those guys don't even take that special fun in dismissing the stereo's virtues. Some really are eager to experience music and would for that reason better ignore as far as humanly possible those tiny drawbacks of today's tech/.

 

[amanieux]

Just two specimen, and a generalized statement (question?) is formulated. Not 'scientific' in particular. As far as I see no effort was taken to address the internal and external conditions of this presentation. That ain't that analytical, at least in my book.

the goal is not to discover a scientific law but more modestly a simple rule of thumb working in 80% of cases to help in speaker puchase decision

 

[sigbergaudio]

the goal is not to discover a scientific law but more modestly a simple rule of thumb working in 80% of cases to help in speaker puchase decision

There is no rule of thumb related to driver size and soundstage in the way you are looking for here.

 

[fineMen]

the goal is not to discover a scientific law but more modestly a simple rule of thumb working in 80% of cases to help in speaker puchase decision

If in purchasing mode, first of all, even if the speaker is small, better get yourselves a true three-way. Then it may be equipped with either a bass of 5" (yes, three way!) or a 7" size. Limiting the bandwith of a driver, except for the tweeter, is key. That's a 'scientific' statement .

YT, better not.

 

[amanieux]

Limiting the bandwith of a driver, except for the tweeter, is key. That's a 'scientific' statement .

i know this fact but then why are there much less 3 way speakers than 2 way speakers and .... why don't we build a multi way speaker where each fundamental frequency is played by a single speaker ? (starting at 32 hz only for the first driver as going under is hard, 64hz only driver, 128hz,256hz ... etc) 11 drivers would be enough for content ranging from 32 hz up to 32khz ... update : stupid not working if i want 261hz (256+4+1) i would need a 1hz and a 4hz driver that does not exist

 

[YSC]

then why are there much less 3 way speakers than 2 way speakers and .... why don't we build a multi way speaker where each fundamental frequency is played by a single speaker ? (starting at 32 hz as going under is hard, 64hz only driver, 128hz,256hz ... etc) 11 drivers would be enough for content ranging from 32 hz up to 32khz

coz there are so many variables controlling how the end product will sound like, there is no rule of thump in purchase decision, spinorama plot can be one to identify the ones you likely will like, but in definitive purchasing decision you can only go like 80% sure