End Game DIY Loudspeakers

[fpitas]

If you must go DIY then a large horn for mids, a tweeter with a large woofer and large cabinet would be a great place to start. Then run it tri amplified with a DSP based active crossover and 3 stereo amps.

Be aware that integrating an actual horn (not a waveguide) is skill level 5. Usually lots of EQ required as well as some provision for time alignment. There were some good reasons that horns got a bad rep in the bad old days. They'll still drive a DIYer crazy.

 

[Andrej]

Be aware that integrating an actual horn (not a waveguide) is skill level 5. Usually lots of EQ required as well as some provision for time alignment. There were some good reasons that horns got a bad rep in the bad old days. They'll still drive a DIYer crazy.

I have started going down that path, not long ago, using waveguides/horns for the tweeter and the midrange (from 160Hz up for the main speakers, and about 270Hz for the center channel), and I love what the horns did to the sound in my very reverberant listening space. Center channel midrange is close to being finished. Harmonic distortion is at SOTA levels and the cost is modest, if you consider my time as free. I also get to use a great workshop for $25/year I am yet to measure the center channel speaker. (See #327 for additional details). I have not found "horns" to be a problem, rather a solution. At a cost - much more labor, and the size, if you go low in frequency, it goes up factor of 8 in volume for halving the frequency! If your time is free, and a sheet of 3/4" MDF is under $60 per 4x8' sheet, the cost of great speakers is under $3k, with Hypex plate amps, which can compete with most commercial designs, and the system is highly tunable to personal preferences. PS. I use the term "horn" if there is compression involved, and "waveguide" if the throar surface area is larger than the are of the radiating element. Not sure if that is the usual definition. In the speakers shown the ratio is about 0.8 to 0.9, with the throat being the smaller area.

 

[Doodski]

Be aware that integrating an actual horn (not a waveguide) is skill level 5. Usually lots of EQ required as well as some provision for time alignment. There were some good reasons that horns got a bad rep in the bad old days. They'll still drive a DIYer crazy.

I simply had a pair of large tower transmission line speakers with KEF woofers, KEF midranges and some piezo dome tweeters. I swapped out the tweeters for KEF 107.2 factory matched tweeters and put the Altec Lansing horns on top and dialed in the active EQ with parametric EQ as a 3 way. It sounded fantastic. RUSH was a delight with the drums and keyboards. I could not believe how easy it was to tune it.

 

[D!sco]

I think that just using a KEF driver goes back to the fundamental question of "What is a perfect loudspeaker?" KEF is awesome, but not perfect. They're a compromise on maximum SPL over directivity and dispersion. I have my own DIY plans that involve KEF drivers, so don't take this as an attack of any kind. I'm just considering what it means to be truly "endgame" and obviously the answer in this thread is that there's no turnkey solution or easy answer.

I was remembering this guy who built his own room for acoustic quality and designed three floor to ceiling towers around a dedicated listening position. To me, this is "endgame" DIY. There's no new house to worry about, no preferences of others to consider. Merely asking "What is endgame DIY" is incorrect, because doing so requires an immediate vision of what endgame should be. It shouldn't be like shopping for loudspeakers at all, at this level.

 

[IamJF]

I was remembering this guy who built his own room for acoustic quality and designed three floor to ceiling towers around a dedicated listening position. To me, this is "endgame" DIY. There's no new house to worry about, no preferences of others to consider. Merely asking "What is endgame DIY" is incorrect, because doing so requires an immediate vision of what endgame should be. It shouldn't be like shopping for loudspeakers at all, at this level.

Nice system but I still would prefer a point source and a way better dampened room.
When going end game - get into studio and control room design. Cause these are the reference rooms, that's the perfect way to hear the music. These rooms follow the rules and are able to deliver a clear picture of the audio.

End game means for me I want to be able to do critical listening - I listen to the music, not the room + reflections + speaker colour + music. That's not the goal for many music lovers - but then it's not endgame in my book. It's nice & enjoyable listening to music and that's totally fine! Just don't use 5000,- mains cables, it makes no sense ;-)

I realised "End Game" in my small listening room with a non environment concept + single bass array (and deeeep absorption at the back). Midrange dome, beryllium membranes, Hypex amps etc. That's not cheap but also in a price range you can afford when you really want to.

 

[ta240]

I think everyone's 'endgame' would be different. To me those walls of speakers look absurd and I'd have to win the lottery to have a room to put them in so they don't even register for me. My 'endgame' is just when I stop looking at other ones.

 

[Ron Texas]

Oxymoron

 

[Rick Sykora]

I think that just using a KEF driver goes back to the fundamental question of "What is a perfect loudspeaker?" KEF is awesome, but not perfect. They're a compromise on maximum SPL over directivity and dispersion. I have my own DIY plans that involve KEF drivers, so don't take this as an attack of any kind. I'm just considering what it means to be truly "endgame" and obviously the answer in this thread is that there's no turnkey solution or easy answer.

I was remembering this guy who built his own room for acoustic quality and designed three floor to ceiling towers around a dedicated listening position. To me, this is "endgame" DIY. There's no new house to worry about, no preferences of others to consider. Merely asking "What is endgame DIY" is incorrect, because doing so requires an immediate vision of what endgame should be. It shouldn't be like shopping for loudspeakers at all, at this level.

There is nothing here about how these speakers were designed. For that matter, it appears to be more of a case of what might be done with apparently limitless funds. Imo, for the money, these speakers should have been a CBT design if he knew better. That said, he clearly is a impressive craftsman.

If he think the best sound comes from vinyl, he has no claim to the best system ever either. Hope he gets to enjoy it for what it is worth!

 

[D!sco]

There is nothing here about how these speakers were designed. For that matter, it appears to be more of a case of what might be done with apparently limitless funds. Imo, for the money, these speakers should have been a CBT design if he knew better. That said, he clearly is a impressive craftsman.

If he think the best sound comes from vinyl, he has no claim to the best system ever either. Hope he gets to enjoy it for what it is worth!

You'll get no argument from me. It's not my ideal, but it seems more like an accurate description of someone being done with the hobby of building and simply enjoying what they enjoy. This person is living by their definition of a perfect endgame, nothing else. It's just my fundamental problem with this thread. There's no way anyone can just say they want an endgame DIY speaker without an idea of what that might be already.
Somewhere out in Italy, there's a man with a basement as a subwoofer. That guy might be better served by a distributed array of smaller subs, but I'm not gonna tell him. I'm not turning a whole room into a sub either, but that's the kind of commitment I kind of expect when people talk about something they'll never replace.

Frankly, even the WMTW in-walls @IamJF made are a better example despite being far less permanent and expensive. They're for him and really only him in that specific example. I can't find it anymore, but someone on DIYAudio made a set of OB's that were designed to have a perfect response for the room they're in, instead of traditional principles and adjusting their placement, by designing for the room as it was.

My ideal speakers are probably some kind of in-wall infinite baffle construction, but I need a house first...

 

[IamJF]

My 'endgame' is just when I stop looking at other ones.

THAT's actually a pretty good definition of end game for me!
When I don't know how to make it better. When measurements AND listening experience are as good as I can make it.


(p.s.: also works for tools and other stuff for me. When I stop watching adds or "accidentally" browse at a dealers page. With guitars I stopped after my Gibson Custom, with tools I'm just buying a Makita and that's done for my needs. Looking forward to my upgrade to the Beryllium Bliesma 3" - this should be my end game system)

 

[Rick Sykora]

You'll get no argument from me. It's not my ideal, but it seems more like an accurate description of someone being done with the hobby of building and simply enjoying what they enjoy. This person is living by their definition of a perfect endgame, nothing else. It's just my fundamental problem with this thread. There's no way anyone can just say they want an endgame DIY speaker without an idea of what that might be already.
Somewhere out in Italy, there's a man with a basement as a subwoofer. That guy might be better served by a distributed array of smaller subs, but I'm not gonna tell him. I'm not turning a whole room into a sub either, but that's the kind of commitment I kind of expect when people talk about something they'll never replace.

Frankly, even the WMTW in-walls @IamJF made are a better example despite being far less permanent and expensive. They're for him and really only him in that specific example. I can't find it anymore, but someone on DIYAudio made a set of OB's that were designed to have a perfect response for the room they're in, instead of traditional principles and adjusting their placement, by designing for the room as it was.

My ideal speakers are probably some kind of in-wall infinite baffle construction, but I need a house first...

Am old enough now to admit my only endgame is death! I also appreciate how my hearing has changed as I mature. While I certainly enjoy music as much as ever, I know am no longer hearing some of the harmonics I did in my younger years. This can creep up on you so just thought I would share…

The game changes over time and so the endgame may as well.

 

[D!sco]

Am old enough now to know to admit my only endgame is death! I also appreciate how my hearing has changed as I mature. While I certainly enjoy music as much as ever, I know am no longer hearing some of the harmonics I did in my younger years. This can creep up on you so just thought I would share…

The game changes over time and so the endgame may as well.

You're probably right that I'm leaning too hard against people who alter their property to implement their hobby in my examples. I also appreciate that your projects tend to be replicable and measurable, without a bunch of secret sauce hiding in a corner. I've even met an electrical engineer who's endgame is portable, but automatically adjusts to the environment.

Anyways, I'm not here to bash anyone or define perfect. I saw this thread again and got unreasonably frustrated at the idea of it. If anything I'm just as upset at the idea of one thing over another being "endgame" or perfect. It doesn't seem to come from a place of understanding the compromises involved in loudspeaker design. It seems distasteful even, like asking some guy at a car show how much their classic cost when they got it, or how much it's "worth" turning the experience into a bid. The dollar value is probably irrelevant to the car show guy. Likewise in audio, I don't think endgame has a specific dollar value, and asking about it directly kind of shows a fundamental misunderstanding. We've all been demonstrating this throughout the thread too, imo. So many people have different ideas of what that is that it's a little much to take in and evaluate, so I just don't anymore. They are all at face value someone's endgame. None of them are mine.

 

[robwpdx]

Search by topic is not easy on this forum software.

If not mentioned https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ker-design-from-present-day-production.37855/

You just have to program the plate amp with their crossover points. Someone should make flatpacks using the same material they use CNC built to order.

 

[ta240]

THAT's actually a pretty good definition of end game for me!
When I don't know how to make it better. When measurements AND listening experience are as good as I can make it.


(p.s.: also works for tools and other stuff for me. When I stop watching adds or "accidentally" browse at a dealers page. With guitars I stopped after my Gibson Custom, with tools I'm just buying a Makita and that's done for my needs. Looking forward to my upgrade to the Beryllium Bliesma 3" - this should be my end game system)

I guess for some endgame means "If I had unlimited funds..." or "what is the most amazing option to ever hope for" but for me it means that the enjoyment and price equation has hit its highest sane point.

Basically, can I see myself enjoying them until I hit the final endgame that Rick mentioned?

 

[jhaider]

I recently had a chance to hear these in their designer’s fairly small and damped room (stuffed book cases on all 4 sides) and thought they were excellent, with spot-on tonality, very precise imaging in multiple seats, and a better sense of slam than I’d previously heard from an open baffle. They looked great for such large speakers, too. (Properly hidden drivers helps there for sure.)

https://evo2.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Bitches_Brew_Open_Baffle_Live_Edge_Speakers.pdf

This is coming from someone who doesn’t generally favor OB or large exit compression drivers, but game is game.

 

[MKR]

I recently had a chance to hear these in their designer’s fairly small and damped room (stuffed book cases on all 4 sides) and thought they were excellent, with spot-on tonality, very precise imaging in multiple seats, and a better sense of slam than I’d previously heard from an open baffle. They looked great for such large speakers, too. (Properly hidden drivers helps there for sure.)

https://evo2.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Bitches_Brew_Open_Baffle_Live_Edge_Speakers.pdf

This is coming from someone who doesn’t generally favor OB or large exit compression drivers, but game is game.

Thanks for sharing, these are very interesting speakers indeed. This designer is doing a lot of things (everything? ) right … may have to dig a bit deeper on this one

 

[IamJF]

He is talking about constant directivity but only showing measurements to 75° (and these clearly show no constant directivity). Frequency response at 180° is interesting for such a design ;-)
But speakers with REAL dynamic range are great! It's way easier to spot a bad mp3 on a good line array system open air as at home - you hear all the details you put in (or it lacks) with ease.

 

[IamJF]

I guess for some endgame means "If I had unlimited funds..." or "what is the most amazing option to ever hope for" but for me it means that the enjoyment and price equation has hit its highest sane point.

Basically, can I see myself enjoying them until I hit the final endgame that Rick mentioned?

I would not consider the price for "end game" - that's the thing, don't be constrained, just do the best.
But when you know what you do and what you WANT (and don't spend tenth of thousends on good loking cables) you land in a realistic area for most working people. But you need a room you are 100% free to tailor for that and where the basic shape is beneficial (depending on the acoustical concept). Better spend 20-30k once as hunting your whole life ...

 

[Kwesi]

The most innovative and most consequent DIY implementation I know of is this:

http://hannover-hardcore.de/infinity_classics/!!!/Aries%20M%20Dokumentation.pdf

Documentation is in german language, but I think most of the graphs and pics speak for themself.
Not documented in the *.pdf, but the builder added also a double bass array as subwoofer section < 100 Hz....

That's what I would really call kind of Endgame....

 

[D!sco]

Slightly OT, but the array got me thinking again... Since ideal CTC distance in a MTM is supposed to be 1/4, 1/3, or 1.2x crossover wavelength, does that apply to ribbons because of their radiation pattern? I think one of the advantages of using it in certain designs is actually the narrow vertical radiation. Especially when it's about a foot long like the previous example, there's a huge space for head movement in a seating position, or even different heights in a standing setup.