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End Game DIY Loudspeakers

Duke

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I could go on as to what I think makes for better speakers, but I think my ideas are a little too fundamental and all end up being large, to be of much interest..
Not to mention some of my thoughts/ideas might create a bit of controversy. :D

I for one would love to hear [gnarly's] thoughts on what makes for better speakers. Especially the controversial or less conventional takes! Your experience building many different types is invaluable.

So would I.

Imo an enlightening exchange of ideas need not be limited to only those for which we have irrefutable proof.
 
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gnarly

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Very interesting. One reason I was considering dipole for the living room was for looks, and because they’d be in front of windows with a view. Perhaps I should suck it up and put as large a MEH there is I can stand :). I will be building 1 or 2 pairs of MEHs anyway for other rooms.

So the coaxial dipole would have pattern control down to ~100hz. Clearly other variables must trump the nearly full range pattern control and point source polars!

Do you try the dipole coax with subwoofers? This would 1) reduce any modulation or IMD issues by relieving the 15” midrange from moving so much and 2) (the obvious) make the bass region much more dynamic, and allow for optimal placement.
I guess you've maybe seen Perry Marshall's "Bitches Brew" OB, using the B&C 15cxn88 ....https://evo2.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Bitches_Brew_Open_Baffle_Live_Edge_Speakers.pdf

Looks like a very nice speaker.

On all the various ways i toyed with the 15cxn88, I always highpassed it at 100Hz. Like I do every for every low-mid, in everything I've ever built.
I work more on reducing potential modulation than on THD...

Here's the reason I kinda quit on the big coax.
When making transfer functions that also measure Coherence, with a program like AARTA or Smaart (and I think donateware OpenSoundMeter),
the big coax gave lower Coherence than seen I seen with a CD on either commercial horns or my unity builds. It just means the measurement is receiving multiple arrivals for the same frequencies.
With FIR filters, when Coherence is high, you can literally make perfect magnitude and phase traces (to a spot & and be careful what you wish for :)
When Coherence is low, such is not possible. It's like there is chaotic response bouncing around that can't be corrected.

So there's that, measurement wise. And then more to the point, nothing I could do got it ot the clarity of the separate CD/horn builds.





I for one would love to hear your thoughts on what makes for better speakers. Especially the controversial or less conventional takes! Your experience building many different types is invaluable.
Thank you for you interest.
And thank you Duke, too.

I will try to post something relatively soon.
Got a big subwoofer out on the driveway today....design stage testing....waiting for the wind to die a little...
 

MAB

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Great additions! That was just a quick off the top of my head list. In my defense, resonances would be covered by the smooth frequency response requirement.

Do you think it’s always the case that a 15” woofer crossing over to a CD will have resonances? It’s probably the base case, but can it be done properly?

For example, even the venerable JBL M2 has resonances. Erin believes they are from the cabinet and woofer cone edge/surround:

View attachment 299088
But this is apparently “fixed” in the JBL 4367 woofer.

I would personally feel better about a ~6” midrange with a flat surround crossed over to the CD and a large woofer for the bass, but then you lose the point source polars unless you fold things like in a MEH.

Speaking of, I believe @gnarly had built several excellent dynamic DIY speakers (properly EQd in the frequency and time domain). If I understand correctly, he ranks them as:

Large multi-way multiple entry horn > 3 way PM90/pm60 (which has better polars) > 15” coaxial in a reflex box.

I’m sure there are multiple reasons, but good directivity control down to, or nearly to Schroeder probability explains a lot of these subjective observations (assuming all are very dynamic, properly speaker eq’d to ~+- 1db, etc).
Interesting. I also wonder about these resonances.
I'm building a DIY M2, my personal idea of an end-game DIY.
Here is the impedance of the 2216 in a small sealed cabinet. I get the same resonances but much lower magnitude at 270Hz compared to what Erin measured in the ported M2 enclosure, and line-on-line identical at 560Hz and 930Hz:
1689530337528.png


I was also thinking 3-way...:rolleyes: and had a pair of B&C midranges, and tried this configuration out but struggle to get the mid integrated. I think my approach on the 3-way is a bit naïve, but it was almost free to try out. I love the sound of the M2. Using sealed cabinet plus PEQ is also working out great.
 

IamJF

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Do you think it’s always the case that a 15” woofer crossing over to a CD will have resonances? It’s probably the base case, but can it be done properly?
For example, even the venerable JBL M2 has resonances. Erin believes they are from the cabinet and woofer cone edge/surround:

But this is apparently “fixed” in the JBL 4367 woofer.
I would personally feel better about a ~6” midrange with a flat surround crossed over to the CD and a large woofer for the bass, but then you lose the point source polars unless you fold things like in a MEH.
A 15" will always have the edge/surround resonances in the audio range. So you can choose a woofer with good control about these and accept it or use a smaller driver.
I once tried a B&C 12"/6"/BMS 1" designed as compact but powerfull party speaker. The basic sound was really good but I couldn't stand the directivity of the speaker. The 6" had broad radiation, the horn was narrow. It only sounded natural on axis - totally useless for the use case. (I'm sure I could have used such a speaker pretty often - maybe i should think about it again ;-))

So if you need the directivity of a 15" for the design - use a 15" :cool:
 

tmuikku

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Hi, just for perspective: any size driver will have its issues on audio range, except some tweeters. Any woofer has perhaps octave or two from its resonance up until blips on impedance plot start to appear. In addition issues with box / structure start typically about the same time, diffraction and resonances. In general, all drivers from 3-15" and box sizes from 10cm to 1m have issues around 1kHz, almost all drivers and boxes have their issues in the midrange, good sound perhaps for two octaves before at least some issues start to happen.

Sound wavelength of 1m is ~340Hz and wavelength of 10cm is ~3400Hz, this is only roughly three octaves and about 99% of home hifi speakers physical dimensions fit into this bracket and thus most of their issues land between these frequencies. Outside of this is bandwidth extension issues, problems with room modes, perhaps some small cone breakup stuff and of course tweeter breakup, but about all the rest fit here. 1kHz is about same size as a bookshelf speaker, size of an LP record, ~30cm.
 
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Short38

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The PBN Audio web site offers four kits built around drivers from: Seas, Scanspeak, SB, and Dayton. May be worth a look if you have not seen.
 

Andrej

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AND
- no resonances in the audible range!
- all resonances outside the range of the drivers dampened 30-40dB.
- piston movement of the drivers, keep away from suspension resonance area (the least important?)

Don't get lazy with the requirements! ;)
A 15" with 3" compression driver can give great dynamics - but already has resonances in the audible range.
I have tried to fulfill all of those requirements, and have managed to get very close. Still figuring out subwoofers, but since this was a center-channel design, subs are not as critical
and the measurements (distortion at 106dB/1m and waterfalls) for each driver
The whole setup is relatively inexpensive, the most expensive item being the Hypex plate amp.
 
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MKR

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I recently had a chance to hear these in their designer’s fairly small and damped room (stuffed book cases on all 4 sides) and thought they were excellent, with spot-on tonality, very precise imaging in multiple seats, and a better sense of slam than I’d previously heard from an open baffle. They looked great for such large speakers, too. (Properly hidden drivers helps there for sure.)


This is coming from someone who doesn’t generally favor OB or large exit compression drivers, but game is game.
@jhaider Coming back to this one … Do you happen to know how I may contact Perry directly? I have some questions on his design, certainly still considering as my end game. Feel free to DM me if you have and prefer to keep Perry’s contact info private. Thanks!
 

SCR

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This one

But just the parts cost is slightly eye watering, and based on the discussion of resale values of DIY vs branded speakers probably a very eccentric thing to do.
 
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fpitas

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resale values of DIY vs branded speakers
Yeah, unless it's a labor of love, you're probably best off just buying speakers. But for DIY it's hard to go wrong with Troels.
 
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MKR

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This one

But just the parts cost is slightly eye watering, and based on the discussion of resale values of DIY vs branded speakers probably a very eccentric thing to do.
I certainly had my eye on these early on, look to be an outstanding design (on paper at least), but I am addicted to fully active systems with dipole/cardioid bass, tough to listen to anything else after you have heard a properly implemented design with such characteristics. And as you allude to on the parts cost, quite the risk to build such a high cost system without hearing first, and that seems close to impossible with these (though maybe there is a DIYer in US that has built the Ellipticor that I could audition?)
 
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Gringoaudio1

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There’s a guy on Reddit who had some built for him. Maybe you can visit him and listen? Not sure where he is located.
 

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Gahf

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....

Mostly due to being influenced by the writing in these pages I have attempted to build a large horn for an 8" drive unit (I had previously built a bass-reflex box). The results are way better than I expected (especially in my current highly reverberant room), so much so that I am considering an 8ft tall line source version with 12 AMTs and 9 8" drivers per side (slightly smaller, going down to 250Hz rather than the current one which goes down to 150Hz). Expensive, but a fraction of the cost for a comparable commercial speaker. The differences for a 2-way bookshelf speaker, in terms of cost, tend to disappear, but we are talking about SOTA versions here.
This is very impressive stuff. The attention to detail and the precise cnc cuts on the enclosure braces and overall designs and fit tells us these should be more impressive than plenty of commercial offerings at much higher prices. I completely agree diy is not for everyone and that overall costs once you get to the system you really love becomes obnoxiously high. Some grin and bear the costs and the efforts (which seldom are converted to costs) for the satisfaction the exercise accords, and for the rest it becomes an exercise in trying to be a designer and seller ourselves.
 

Gahf

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What an intriguing thread! Took most of my morning here in India reading this thread almost completely and am now tempted to put in my version of end game speakers I have been listening to for a couple of months now. This took me several months of iterations experimenting with 12 and 15 inches woofers/subwoofers, and then later with 10 inches for a reasonable sized room with some padding and diffusers with but a glass wall and a bookshelf, etc, I just could not come close to building a satisfactory system, till this one happened (happened is perhaps the right word- you mix and match and build and rebuild, and one fine day you stumble upon magic).

Synopsis: An Active 4 way stereo system which could be used for music as also casual home cinema speakers duty. Now before you judge me and say an immersive cinema experience can only be had with dedicated surrounds, centre, and satellites, etc., please understand the idea was to install it in a small to medium sized room with a couple of lounging chairs and a book shelf plus a large screen television to be used as a den without carrying the whistles of a full fledged home theatre. There would be reasonable wall paddings and diffusers installed at places, would not be a completely dark room (need regular reflections of light for a relaxing environment), not completely cut off from the main living areas. Which means sound would reflect somewhat and it will not be an acoustic room. This would of course present its difficulties in tuning the system and ensuring the coloration is manageable with minimum phase/timing corrections.

Wife acceptance factor: This could never be a winner in this department but still had to be of a reasonable footprint to not be completely out of place in room sizes 200 square feet or more.

The costs: To be kept under $ 5k (of course ignoring man hours gone incognito into iterations).

Driver selection:

Sub bass:
4*8” subwoofers used each side and driven at relatively high wattage and equalised so that the extra radiating area would compensate for low efficiency and a fairly decent fs in the low forties with a port tuned to below 30 hz would cover the entire spectrum from below 30 to upto 200 hz. For new recordings either digitally produced or with lots of instruments, this would be a low pass at around 80/100 hz, and for old recordings with nothing below 40 hz to hear and vocals between 80-200 hz requiring a higher thrust, the low pass would be placed higher between 140-200 hz.

Bass/Mid bass: Frequencies up to 700hz- Celestion 8 inches FTR-08- 2011D pro driver. These show an extremely flat response from 100 hz- 3000 hz in a sealed box based and was perfect for the job. I only needed it to play between 100-700 hz and these do wonderful duty in this range. I have used these extensively between 70-5k hz and they have become my favourite mid drivers. The depth in the vocals is extremely pleasing with these drivers.

Tweeter: A Peerless Tymphany D27TG35-01 1” silk tweeter has always been my favourite, partly because these are easily available in India, and are the most forgiving with below par crossovers and are at home equalised anywhere from 2.2 khz and above.

Mid range: I had a variety of speakers to do duty between 700 hz to 2.3/3.3khz and chose a well built pro inexpensive 8” driver with a low xmas owing to a stiff surround but a very light wool mixed composite paper cone (both the subwoofer drivers and mid range drivers were sourced from a local manufacturer in Delhi). The alternative was the Celestion TFO510 (I have an affinity towards Celestion pro drivers) and either of these worked very well, with some listeners gravitating towards the Celestion and some including me over the 8 inch driver.

The cabinets: Two cabinets were built with similar width to keep on top of each other, for a homogenous radiating area. Both were built in two layers using 19mm medium density fibre board, and diffusers made of same material and wool felt lining the walls inside. The diffusers were cut into curved small pieces to somehow make the cabinets believe they were not rectangular, to try to fool the standing waves not to color the music to unacceptable levels. The subwoofer cabinets have bracing lined up on the corners and between each driver, and measure 13.25”*18.75”*47.25” to achieve slightly less than 4 cubic feet internal volume overall, and further lined with polyfil with 0.25 inches layers one at a time to assess the optimum fill levels, which was arrived at 3 layers eventually. Two ports of 3.5 inches clear diameter with minimal flairs and 8.5” long are used at the bottom and tuned to 29 hz.

Each driver has its own 1” baffle grinded into a slope to meet the edge of the membrane. Below which the drivers are surface mounted. This has somewhat met the criteria of lower baffle excitement on account of the large overall radiating area of 4 woofers together. The edges are rounded and perhaps serve a cosmetic purpose rather than any real diffusion.

The rest of the 3 way cabinet measures 13.25”*14.75”*23.75” and the midrange and the tweeter are in a separate enclosure within this enclosure. Though perhaps such a large cabinet was not needed since the Celestion mid woofer has a very low qts and requires but a small chamber sealed, the placement of the 3 speakers with internal partitions was not possible without this front profile. Measurement of this 3 way was taken separately both in an almost acoustically dead room and outside, and was found to be fairly flat from 100 hz above, at which frequency it is to be really used.

Crossover: Two units of DBX 234XL each used mono 4 Way, with the general cut off points at 100hz, 700hz and 3.3khz. Being active a variety of slopes can be played around for each driver, which really gives a large latitude in arriving at a listener’s sweet spot according to the genre of music playing.

The media- A smart TV, a receiver, a dvd player, anything which has a pre-out.

The amplifiers: 8 channels of analogue class AB classic amplifier designs of no more than 3 stages with limited feedback custom assembled for these speakers. They are 600, 200, 200 and 100 watts each side, all with a Toshiba 5200/1943 topology.

Finish: These are finished in a high gloss veneer, and automotive black paint, and if you will pardon the smudges of dirty hands here and there, they are quite pleasing to look at too. The baffle on the top has been taken off in this unit. In another unit you can see the baffle on with the midrange being played by a carbon mixed membrane 6" mid woofer.

The verdict: And there we have. I am blessed to have a couple of golden eared people who have auditioned these, not to mention a few audiophile friends, and a couple of hi-fi store owners, several other casual listeners and we have all found these extremely musical. Some including me have been so emotionally moved of the purity and resolution of music coming out of these speakers, that we find it difficult to move away once we have listened for an hour. The subwoofers are capable of producing quite deep rumbling notes in motion soundtracks, and the music otherwise appears very complete with no jarring notes. These are speakers perhaps of which I will not grow out of for a long time.

Are these end game? For several listeners these are, for the time being, in this size of a room and its setting, till I am able to make something better.



264-1022_HR_0.default.jpgFTR08-2011D-BACK-768x768.pngFTR08-2011D-SIDE.pngIMG_1348.JPGIMG_1351.JPGIMG_1352.JPGIMG_1262.JPG
IMG_1357.JPG
 

Ra1zel

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For me, a true SOTA speaker means a true minimum phase device. That means no excess phase in the whole audible range, perfect step response and so, it also implies use of DSP and FIR filtering. That already eliminates all passive speakers.

Also, directivity has to be smooth and controlled, no resonances of any kind both from transducers and enclosure, minimized diffraction, virtually inert enclosure, thd at 90dB ~0.1% 50Hz-10kHz. That eliminates all speakers not using SOTA drivers like Purifi, BlieSMa and huge subwoofers and also not employing heavy, stiff, diffraction optimized enclosures.

It has to hit at least 110dB peaks, but not at a singular frequency, which is trivial, but rather 15hz-10kHz.

I think I eliminated 100% of speakers and solved the hobby. No need to thank me.
 

Andrej

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For me, a true SOTA speaker means a true minimum phase device. That means no excess phase in the whole audible range, perfect step response and so, it also implies use of DSP and FIR filtering. That already eliminates all passive speakers.

Also, directivity has to be smooth and controlled, no resonances of any kind both from transducers and enclosure, minimized diffraction, virtually inert enclosure, thd at 90dB ~0.1% 50Hz-10kHz. That eliminates all speakers not using SOTA drivers like Purifi, BlieSMa and huge subwoofers and also not employing heavy, stiff, diffraction optimized enclosures.

It has to hit at least 110dB peaks, but not at a singular frequency, which is trivial, but rather 15hz-10kHz.

I think I eliminated 100% of speakers and solved the hobby. No need to thank me.
You are of course (mostly) right, but there is no need to give up. Take a look at https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...bargain-drive-units.45505/page-3#post-1703416
Which meets many of your criteria. Still planning for subwoofers and FIR filtering, which will come in due course. Inexpensive too
 

IamJF

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For me, a true SOTA speaker means a true minimum phase device. That means no excess phase in the whole audible range, perfect step response and so, it also implies use of DSP and FIR filtering. That already eliminates all passive speakers.

Also, directivity has to be smooth and controlled, no resonances of any kind both from transducers and enclosure, minimized diffraction, virtually inert enclosure, thd at 90dB ~0.1% 50Hz-10kHz. That eliminates all speakers not using SOTA drivers like Purifi, BlieSMa and huge subwoofers and also not employing heavy, stiff, diffraction optimized enclosures.

It has to hit at least 110dB peaks, but not at a singular frequency, which is trivial, but rather 15hz-10kHz.

I think I eliminated 100% of speakers and solved the hobby. No need to thank me.
Thank you. I like challenges. :cool:
 
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For me, a true SOTA speaker means a true minimum phase device. That means no excess phase in the whole audible range, perfect step response and so, it also implies use of DSP and FIR filtering. That already eliminates all passive speakers.

Also, directivity has to be smooth and controlled, no resonances of any kind both from transducers and enclosure, minimized diffraction, virtually inert enclosure, thd at 90dB ~0.1% 50Hz-10kHz. That eliminates all speakers not using SOTA drivers like Purifi, BlieSMa and huge subwoofers and also not employing heavy, stiff, diffraction optimized enclosures.

It has to hit at least 110dB peaks, but not at a singular frequency, which is trivial, but rather 15hz-10kHz.

I think I eliminated 100% of speakers and solved the hobby. No need to thank me.
What are your listening needs? Unless you need a "perfect" speaker (which by the way, would have to be co-axial, which eliminates any speaker using Purifi, BlieSMa, etc.) for aerospace lab test, the difference between SOTA and non SOTA for human audio science have already been explained, tested, and verified ad nauseam on this site.
 
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