ATC speakers / Monitors

[DSJR]

I say this again, you simply had a bad demo with either a bad setup or broken passive 40s, or the particular music material they played for you at that single demo simply had no depth.

The three-dimensionality, layering, and ability to separate the sound objects in the mix are simply astonishing, the best I've heard from a pair of speakers, that's a very important aspect for me as I'm using my speakers for mixing the music I make. That's why I know it was clearly something funky going on with the demo you had and the speakers did simply underperform. I'm sure it has happened to you sometimes with other speakers you know very well that they don't always perform that great depending on the setup. The same speaker will simply not go from having a lousy 2-D kind of presentation to having a three-dimensional sound just by going from passive to active, that's not how it works.

Maybe you have noticed that I have participated in a lot threads here at ASR about stereo image, sound stage, and depth of recordings. The reason for that is that it’s one of the most important qualities I seek in a speaker, and that's also one of the reasons why I think the ATC SCM40 is such a great speaker.

I would have loved to give you a proper demo of my passive 40s if we lived closer to each other.

Sorry, must disagree. I love the 40A's but the passives aren't anything like as good. We'll have to agree to differ here.

 

[Deleted member 57422]

Well it could be that, more likely it is this,


Probably quite decent 40 years ago.
Keith

I have a hard time seeing why someone would post an hi-fi sound system while answering a harsh fact about Professional studio grade monitoring system.

Would it be that one doesn't know any better?

 

[ahofer]

I say this again, you simply had a bad demo with either a bad setup or broken passive 40s, or the particular music material they played for you at that single demo simply had no depth.

I had a couple of unimpressive auditions with ATC passives a few years ago. One in Manhattan, another in NJ. I asked to audition actives, but neither dealer had them in stock or was willing to bring them in. I brought my own source material to both.

These measurements of the SCM19 are true to my recollection.

 

[goat76]

Well it could be that, more likely it is this,


Probably quite decent 40 years ago.
Keith

Do you think Amir will be happy when he receives a 53 Kg speaker?

 

[goat76]

Sorry, must disagree. I love the 40A's but the passives aren't anything like as good. We'll have to agree to differ here.

But it's not really about agreement or disagreement when you describe the sound as being 2D-like. That’s simply not true with my passive 40s, the three-dimensional sound they produce is one of their strong points.

 

[DSJR]

But it's not really about agreement or disagreement when you describe the sound as being 2D-like. That’s simply not true with my passive 40s, the three-dimensional sound they produce is one of their strong points.

Go hear some Dynaudio Focus 50's and tell me that after

 

[Deleted member 57422]

I had a couple of unimpressive auditions with ATC passives a few years ago. One in Manhattan, another in NJ. I asked to audition actives, but neither dealer had them in stock or was willing to bring them in. I brought my own source material to both.

These measurements of the SCM19 are true to my recollection.

Waow, a +/- 5db from 100hz to 10khz in room response curve.

Thinking the gennies 8030c that is on top of a list and achieve a +/- 6db from 100hz to 10khz in room response.

That's jaw dropping.

Not to point out the amount of bass tilt on the gennies and they are called perfect in its review.

What else can we say....

I think those graph sum up pretty much all there is to know

 

[ahofer]

Waow, a +/- 5db from 100hz to 10khz in room response curve.

Thinking the gennies 8030c that is on top of a list and achieve a +/- 6db from 100hz to 10khz in room response.

That's jaw dropping.

Not to point out the amount of bass tilt on the gennies and they are called perfect in its review.

What else can we say....

I think those graph sum up pretty much all there is to know

 

[Deleted member 57422]

Pretty impressive how biased perception can be, isn't it ?

A better performing monitor with less tilt was nowhere called ''perfect''....yet....

Ay, anyways hahahaha

 

[Tovarich007]

Because they don't need to be reviewed as they are a professional studio industry staple for over 40 years which is where the music you listen to on your test bench monitors come from.

That's what usually happen when you have nothing to prove to anyone.

This time, I've read carefully what you write here. Well, I don't think that's so simple as that.
ATC isn't the only brand which have "nothing to prove anymore" in the pro market.
First, no one can seriously claims he has nothing to prove, because everything changes, and do not progress in a changing world is regressive.
Second, Genelec, JBL and Neumann could claim the same,, but they have sent ASR some models for reviews.

I like very much ATC monitors for listening, but as good as they sound, I don't think they are nowadays the ultimate in terms of linearity and sound stage precision for professionnal applications (moreover, their very high price can't be justified anymore for models who have undergone only minor improvements in decades).

I was told the following anecdote by a famous pianist and musical critic who has a seriously good earing and a long pedigree and friends in the pro domain (musical and technical) and who have participated in many recordings sessions : so, in Radio France (one of the best equipped studio house in Europe by the way), they use ATCs SCM 50, 100 and 150 among other monitors (Genelec, Neumann, Cabasse, custom models and others), but most sound engineers and producers prefer to rely on Genelecs or Neumanns instead of ATCs for their more accurate soundstage on acoustic music recordings -mainly classical or jazz. Some of them have even nicknamed ATCs as "amène ton casque" which means "bring your headphones" in french (very funny acronym, don't you think ?).

Once again, this doesn't mean ATCs are bad speakers, far from my opinion to think so, but they're not the best in every situations, and other good brands have serious arguments to offer, too, among them genelec, neumann, PSI.

 

[Deleted member 57422]

This time, I've read carefully what you write here. Well, I don't think that's so simple as you write.
ATC isn't the only brand which have "nothing to prove anymore" in the pro market.
First, noone can seriuosly claims he has nothing to prove, because everything changes, and do not progress in a changing world is is regressive.
Second, Genelec, JBL and Neumann could claim the same,, but they have sent ASR some models for reviews.

I like very much ATC monitors for listening, but as good as they sound, I don't think they are nowadays the ultimate in terms of linearity and sound stage precision for professionnal applications (moreover, their very high price can't be justified anymore for models who have undergone only minor improvements in decades).

I was told the following anecdote by a famous pianist and musical critic who has a seriously good earing and a long pedigree and friends in the pro domain (musical and technical) and who have participated in many recordings sessions : so, in Radio France (one of the best equipped studios house in Europe), they use ATCs SCM 50, 100 and 150 among other monitors (Genelec, Neumann, Cabasse, custom models and others), but most sound engineers and producers prefer to rely on Genelecs or Neumanns instead ATCs for their more accurate soundstage on acoustic music recordings -mainly classical or jazz. Some of them have even nicknamed ATCs as "amène ton casque" which means "bring your headphones" in french (very funny acronym, don't you think ?).

Once again, this doesn't mean ATCs are bad speakers, far from my opinion to think so, but they're not the best for every situations, and other good brands have serious arguments to offer, too, amonng them genelec, neumann, PSI.

Ca parait peut-etre pas vite comme ca mais Martel c'est un nom de famille Francophone.

All points are valid but yet this studio you're talking about is equipped with ATC's.... not one but 3 set for that matter. Even though people are not used to ATC's mid range, it does provide the greatest soundstage in my opinion. But that, I cannot prove by numbers nor graphics.

It is widely known that this is their biggest strength.

Amene ton casque might only mean that they actually don't know how to deal with ATC's as it does take some time to get used to it when you first get them.

It is not your average joe studio monitors. They are mastering grade type of monitors.

I worked on gennies extensively ( I don't own them in my home studio anymore for a good reason) and the 1031 was incredible even if it sounded like sh!ty harsh ringing in the 2k to 5k range because it made you worked for so long in there that you ended up with impecable high mids.

While I appreciate the newest models, they kept that high distortion high mid profile. Again, it is a profile that is a lot more accessible then the ATC's for sure which would underline the point of new kids on the block working on Amene ton casque because they are not used as the forward mid sound signature of the ATC's.

PMC's mastering grade IB's line have that sort of sound signature as well but less pronounced. In the end, the human hear most important frequencies are between 300hz and 5Khz which is where ATC's shine the most.

Neumann's 420 are on a league of their own in terms of neutrality but they don't bring resolution nor details in the mids like ATC's does. Again, just because of their mid dome.

Someone or a group not liking it defeat the purpose of specific utility and I don't find it surprising that new engineers use other brands as the ATC's really have a weird way of translating the mids when you hear them at first.

I remember, it took me at least 2 weeks to get used to working on a set of 25's at a gig I was hired for. It's not conventional but you get out with very high reward once you understand what you're hearing.

It's like the lack of distortion in the low end. A lot of people interpret that as a lack of low end. No its not a lack of low end, it's just that you are used to distorting low ends and the ATC's are not or distorting a lot less to put it plainly.

 

[Tovarich007]

And thanks, Martel, for the information on the large APS Trinity. I thought this model was discontinued, but it's not.

 

[ahofer]

The whole discussion of what is used in studios, while it is an attractive ad credentium, is probably irrelevant.

a. mastering is generally done in the sweetspot nearfield, often with the desk monitors, AFAIK
b. Studios will EQ the listening position to flat and treat the walls of the studio

What this means is that dispersion anomalies and the FR out of the box are less important, while other features (durability, sound pressure, distortion) are more important, compared to our experiences in our living room.

Soundstage/imaging is an illusion produced by accurate FR and phase reproduction in each channel, along with even and symmetrical reflections (if any) not some other unmeasured intrinsic property of one speaker or another.

 

[Purité Audio]

Ca parait peut-etre pas vite comme ca mais Martel c'est un nom de famille Francophone.

All points are valid but yet this studio you're talking about is equipped with ATC's.... not one but 3 set for that matter. Even though people are not used to ATC's mid range, it does provide the greatest soundstage in my opinion. But that, I cannot prove by numbers nor graphics.

It is widely known that this is their biggest strength.

Amene ton casque might only mean that they actually don't know how to deal with ATC's as it does take some time to get used to it when you first get them.

It is not your average joe studio monitors. They are mastering grade type of monitors.

I worked on gennies extensively ( I don't own them in my home studio anymore for a good reason) and the 1031 was incredible even if it sounded like sh!ty harsh ringing in the 2k to 5k range because it made you worked for so long in there that you ended up with impecable high mids.

While I appreciate the newest models, they kept that high distortion high mid profile. Again, it is a profile that is a lot more accessible then the ATC's for sure which would underline the point of new kids on the block working on Amene ton casque because they are not used as the forward mid sound signature of the ATC's.

PMC's mastering grade IB's line have that sort of sound signature as well but less pronounced. In the end, the human hear most important frequencies are between 300hz and 5Khz which is where ATC's shine the most.

Neumann's 420 are on a league of their own in terms of neutrality but they don't bring resolution nor details in the mids like ATC's does. Again, just because of their mid dome.

Someone or a group not liking it defeat the purpose of specific utility and I don't find it surprising that new engineers use other brands as the ATC's really have a weird way of translating the mids when you hear them at first.

I remember, it took me at least 2 weeks to get used to working on a set of 25's at a gig I was hired for. It's not conventional but you get out with very high reward once you understand what you're hearing.

It's like the lack of distortion in the low end. A lot of people interpret that as a lack of low end. No its not a lack of low end, it's just that you are used to distorting low ends and the ATC's are not or distorting a lot less to put it plainly.

Well they don’t really extend into low bass look at the plots for the passive and active 50’s I posted, they are a ‘traditional’ design.
Keith

 

[Deleted member 57422]

a. mastering is generally done in the sweetspot nearfield, often with the desk monitors, AFAIK
b. Studios will EQ the listening position to flat and treat the walls of the studio

Monitors used at Sterling Sounds ( the most prestigious Mastering studio in the world ):
ATC SCM150ASL Pro
PMC IB1S-AIII
B&W 802 D3

The Exchange also use a set of ATC's.

Gateway Mastering also use a set of ATC's

Abbey Road as well.

Bernie Grundman Mastering also use a set of ATC's.

Those are some of the best Mastering Studios in the world.

None of them use Nearfields.

Most use Main Farfield monitors in-wall fitted to remove room reflection from the enclosure but some use columns and foot fitted.

They do use some system like the trinnov to EQ their Mains but none of them are in perfect condition as no one mix in anechoic chambers. They all have their preferences, in terms of liveliness. Some like it more muffled then others.


ATC's at Sterling Sounds:

 

[Purité Audio]

I am sure soffit mounted in a fully treated studio ATCs can sound super, unfortunately…
Keith

 

[dfuller]

a. mastering is generally done in the sweetspot nearfield, often with the desk monitors, AFAIK

No, most of the time mastering is done on midfields or farfields, often flush mounted to reduce the impact of SBIR.

 

[ahofer]

No, most of the time mastering is done on midfields or farfields, often flush mounted to reduce the impact of SBIR.

I'm happy to admit mistake, as it isn't my line of work, but the picture above more than fits my description of nearfield.

 

[Deleted member 57422]

I'm happy to admit mistake, as it isn't my line of work, but the picture above more than fits my description of nearfield.

You might want to review your definition of Nearfields, mid-fields and Farfield/Main monitors because those Monitors are Enormous Main monitors.

In comparison, a nearfield monitor is about 1/10 of the size that you see in this picture.

SCM200 are 32.7″ x 28.7″ x 17.3″

SCM20 are 17.72˝ x 9.84˝ x 15.43˝

 

[Tovarich007]

Ca parait peut-etre pas vite comme ca mais Martel c'est un nom de famille Francophone.

All points are valid but yet this studio you're talking about is equipped with ATC's.... not one but 3 set for that matter. Even though people are not used to ATC's mid range, it does provide the greatest soundstage in my opinion. But that, I cannot prove by numbers nor graphics.

It is widely known that this is their biggest strength.

Amene ton casque might only mean that they actually don't know how to deal with ATC's as it does take some time to get used to it when you first get them.

It is not your average joe studio monitors. They are mastering grade type of monitors.

I worked on gennies extensively ( I don't own them in my home studio anymore for a good reason) and the 1031 was incredible even if it sounded like sh!ty harsh ringing in the 2k to 5k range because it made you worked for so long in there that you ended up with impecable high mids.

While I appreciate the newest models, they kept that high distortion high mid profile. Again, it is a profile that is a lot more accessible then the ATC's for sure which would underline the point of new kids on the block working on Amene ton casque because they are not used as the forward mid sound signature of the ATC's.

PMC's mastering grade IB's line have that sort of sound signature as well but less pronounced. In the end, the human hear most important frequencies are between 300hz and 5Khz which is where ATC's shine the most.

Neumann's 420 are on a league of their own in terms of neutrality but they don't bring resolution nor details in the mids like ATC's does. Again, just because of their mid dome.

Someone or a group not liking it defeat the purpose of specific utility and I don't find it surprising that new engineers use other brands as the ATC's really have a weird way of translating the mids when you hear them at first.

I remember, it took me at least 2 weeks to get used to working on a set of 25's at a gig I was hired for. It's not conventional but you get out with very high reward once you understand what you're hearing.

It's like the lack of distortion in the low end. A lot of people interpret that as a lack of low end. No its not a lack of low end, it's just that you are used to distorting low ends and the ATC's are not or distorting a lot less to put it plainly.

Of course Martel is a name of french origin. from where are you, by the way ?

But it sounds a bit presomptuous to hear from you that Radio france french sound engineers, most of them being tvery exeprienced, and seasoned ones (much more than in most private studios) "don't know to deal with ATCs". Why should they know to use PSi, Genelec and not ATCs ? Sound is not magic, they know what they do and what they hear.

I agree with you on two points :

-3 ways ATCs present marvelously good timbers in medium range, that's true and this a major factor of their success,
-they have a tight and well articulated bass, another great quality too.

But this doesn't mean they have the most precise soundstage for live classical music recording. The engineers of Radio France say : "ATCs add a layer that doesn't exist in real live sound" (before their eyes and ears), in other terms, their soundstage is too deep to be completely accurate. It is a common mistake in the audiophile world to confuse deep soundstage and right soundstage. Some speakers increase too much the impression of deepness, and other speakers reduce it too much, a contrario. A right speaker in this respect nor increase nor reduce it.

And the difference you make between a "mastering grade" speaker and a recording or mixing speaker is quite subjective. which precise definition and differences you point out between the two types ?

And finally I never heard the so called ringing in the Genelec treble I've listened to, the people I'm talking about have't hear it, too. The harshness of Genelec treble is kind of a sound legend in my humble opinion. Same for the ATCs or the PSIs, Genelec treble sounds harsh when the real sound is harsh, and only in those circumstances.