Has the objective of ASR been reached?

[Mnyb]

To me, music listening is subjective. Take for instance tube amplifiers...most of them measure less than stellar, yet there will be people who swear that the amp tubes sound much better than solid state amps that measure better. Such is the preference of people and the subjective nature of music listening.

It’s a difference between liking tube amps for what they are and and prefer them or actually believing that they posses some magical unmeasurable thing that makes them actually sound better ? The later is how über expensive and exotic gear portrayed in marketing and “reviews”

 

[kemmler3D]

It’s a difference between liking tube amps for what they are and and prefer them or actually believing that they posses some magical unmeasurable thing that makes them actually sound better ? The later is how über expensive and exotic gear portrayed in marketing and “reviews”

This is something the whole audio world could stand to remember sometimes.

Objectively better = output is more similar to the input.
Subjectively better = I like it more.

They can be, but really don't have to be, the same thing.

 

[fpitas]

Perhaps ASR has reached its ultimate goal, and will now be sold to PS Audio.

 

[Dimitri]

Perhaps ASR has reached its ultimate goal, and will now be sold to PS Audio.

That's humor thread material !

 

[Mnyb]

This is something the whole audio world could stand to remember sometimes.

Objectively better = output is more similar to the input.
Subjectively better = I like it more.

They can be, but really don't have to be, the same thing.

Yes and the magic thinking also reject the fact that there is such a thing as transparent electronics that you don’t hear at all it’s just the source shining trough ( like most DAC’s today ).

 

[Gringoaudio1]

The objective is to be objective.

 

[OldHvyMec]

Perhaps ASR has reached its ultimate goal, and will now be sold to PS Audio.

You can't put a price on manners or the truth. I think ASR is well established in the audio community. Many agree in principal but pride
of "the good old days" gets in the way. I don't mind saying "I made a mistake", at all, if I did. A person can still be polite and get the point across.

I've watched the intermittent comments by Amir at AudioGon. He keeps quite a cool head. I would like to say I could do the same but the
admin there and a couple of places put money, difference of opinions and less than transparent information up about their buying/selling
practices, LIKE everyone having a 100% or 0%. No bad reviews in light of quite a few scams. They have literally been blacklisted verbally
by a most UNION people. I'm one that asked to be removed from their site and 2 others. All the libraries of congress have been erased there.
Damn shame.

I miss the comaraderie but the sloppy application of admin I'LL PASS!!!

You can't bribe a man that has his mind made up. I like that! I have a price, no has ever met it yet. Come to think of it, no one offered.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I don't think the objective of ASR has been reached. I think there is more to discover about the best and most appropriate tests for different components.

• Just recently, @amirm has included Power Cube measurements for speaker amplifiers.
• More people are using the Cosmos E1DA to run excellent tests (that when I started would have cost 1000s to buy and couldn't do e.g. FFTs for noise frequency distribution).
• Just recently there was a discussion about the Cambridge Audio Duo which Amir tested when he was first measuring phono amps and he wants to apply what he now does to it and measure again
• There are fascinating threads on LP test disc comparisons
• New chips emerge

Perhaps for small signal amplifiers, ASR has reached the edge of measurability, perhaps the same with DACs, but I still believe there's more to discover!

 

[fatoldgit]

The "problem" for ASR is because its not a traditional review site (i.e ASR doesnt have a strong relationship with vendors***, dealers etc) that the number of high end Dragons that it can slayed is limited.

Any existing owner of a $$$$ component has already brought into the marketing so isnt going to send said device to ASR for testing.

Yes, we have had a small number of $$$$ components sent in but as to whether its job done... I aint sure.

To some degree, ASR is a DAC site (with a sprinkling of Class D amps) simply because these (1) arent heavy so easy to ship and (2) arent expensive so low risk to shipper. Same with small bookshelf/monitor speakers.

So it does a good job in these areas BUT it wont alter peoples tendency to buy $$$$ components simply because they havent passed over Amir's work bench so not critical metrics are available (thats why I do like Stereophile cause at least JA can give us some insights... you can ignore the reviews just hit the measurements section)

Reviewing the 1000th Topping DAC isnt going to move the needle nor is a review of some $100 device from Amazon.

The day ASR starts to get big arsed Dan D'agostino amps, Wilson speakers etc is the day when its mission will start to be complete.

So Amir needs to find a like minded millionaire/billionaire who can fund these purchases (obviously on a try/return basis or taking a small loss on resale)

Peter

**** obviously some vendors like Topping are well engaged with ASR

 

[amirm]

To some degree, ASR is a DAC site (with a sprinkling of Class D amps) simply because these (1) arent heavy so easy to ship and (2) arent expensive

??? I have tested amplifiers and speakers up to some 100 pounds! And of course I also test headphones. And phono stages. And (heavy) AVRs. The only thing I don't test are turntables.

But yes, your larger point is correct that boutique companies in general are not going to send their bits in. Question then becomes if consumer pressure would cause them to change on their own.

 

[mhardy6647]

??? I have tested amplifiers and speakers up to some 100 pounds! And of course I also test headphones. And phono stages. And (heavy) AVRs. The only thing I don't test are turntables.

[Emphasis added]

That's true!

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...corder-101-review-vintage-reel-to-reel.32464/

 

[Multicore]

I think there's scope for more work on target/preference curves of in-room or headphone FR. The whole statistical study of preference is curious to me. I'm not very interested in mainstream music, my interests are more to the weird stuff that has very small audiences. Similarly it seems fair to imagine that something different from the most popular FR is preferable to me, or to you.

Statistically determining that more people like A kind of sound than like B is fair enough. And it makes sense to research that if you are mass producing products (as opposed to, say, customizing them). It's another thing to infer that A is what any individual should seek for themselves.

 

[fatoldgit]

??? I have tested amplifiers and speakers up to some 100 pounds! And of course I also test headphones. And phono stages. And (heavy) AVRs. The only thing I don't test are turntables.

But yes, your larger point is correct that boutique companies in general are not going to send their bits in. Question then becomes if consumer pressure would cause them to change on their own.

I am of course not trolling etc and yes you have reviewed some big stuff (simply because the owner is willing to take the risk inherent in shipping).

My general point (i.e. I wasnt going to list every device category!!!) was that there is a strong correlation between size of device and devices reviewed.

So go find your Sugar Daddy (or Mommy... maybe a rich "audio widow") and lets kick some butt!!

With regard to consumer pressure, until ASR has a strong body of work relative to $$$$ components then its hard to dissuade potential buyers cause the two spheres (ASR and trad review sites) dont overlap.

Once ASR gets some traction with $$$$ components and/or the traditional review sites start reviewing lower cost but well measuring components on a regular basis (wont happen) then its a long slog.


Peter

 

[fpitas]

I very much doubt the people in the market for the high dollar stuff are going to come to ASR to see what we say.

 

[Swtoby]

The fight has only just begun, and the war could drag on interminably.

Others engaged in this fight long before Amir:

The Audio Critic

 

[fatoldgit]

I very much doubt the people in the market for the high dollar stuff are going to come to ASR to see what we say.

Which does bring up something I have long though about.

The dude/dudess dropping $50k/$100k+ on a system... do they do web searches for possible components (and hence potentially hit an ASR review on the $$$$ component they are interested in) or do they just find a dealer and trust them.

Probably the later. I can see someone at the $50k level or below being an actual audiophile (in the best sense of the word) and hitting various forums to seek independent advice (i.e. not a money grabbing dealer) but as more money is in play its a dealer all the way.

So maybe even if ASR did have a Dan D'agostino amp review that showed it in a poor light, our potential buyer wont see it cause they will use other sources for the purchase decision

Peter

 

[Gringoaudio1]

People buy so-called high end gear based on peer pressure. Rich guys showing off to each other. Same with super cars. Rich guys I know anyway. Research the specs? No research the snoot factor.

 

[fpitas]

Which does bring up something I have long though about.

The dude/dudess dropping $50k/$100k+ on a system... do they do web searches for possible components (and hence potentially hit an ASR review on the $$$$ component they are interested in) or do they just find a dealer and trust them.

Probably the later. I can see someone at the $50k level or below being an actual audiophile (in the best sense of the word) and hitting various forums to seek independent advice (i.e. not a money grabbing dealer) but as more money is in play its a dealer all the way.

So maybe even if ASR did have a Dan D'agostino amp review that showed it in a poor light, our potential buyer wont see it cause they will use other sources for the purchase decision

Peter

I'm sure the occasional buyer does real research. But I bet it's rare. And frankly, we're a bunch of boffins here. Over and over I've found that most people don't know how a product is designed, how it's tested, nor how it's produced. So they have no particular reason to trust our judgement.

 

[JayGilb]

I very much doubt the people in the market for the high dollar stuff are going to come to ASR to see what we say.

Some people want gear for the status and their knowledge knowing that the average person cannot afford it.

 

[raif71]

It’s a difference between liking tube amps for what they are and and prefer them or actually believing that they posses some magical unmeasurable thing that makes them actually sound better ? The later is how über expensive and exotic gear portrayed in marketing and “reviews”

I guess it doesn't matter, right? If it sounds good, it's good (at least to that person)