High end av receiver vs. mid-tier stereo amplifier?

[dorakeg]

I forgot to ask you to describe the differences, so thanks for that. More sounds like your brain/ears playing tricks on you (not unusual), most likely just a level difference or your expectation bias sneaking in. If you didn't move the speakers (soundstage is a combo of what is baked into the recording as well as your speakers) it's doubtful that was what actually happened. Ears don't make good test instruments, and sonic memory isn't very good either (assuming you used the avr and integrated amp alternately rather than simultaneously).

No, thats not trick, its called stereo imaging and some gears does it better than others. None of the measurements like SIAND, THD or SNR, FR etc... can tell you how well a gear can do this. Only way is to listen and determine it youtself. I have also mentioned numberous times in the past that this is one main factor that sets budget gear and higher end gear apart.

It may be subjective but its not placebo. Check out the thread below.

I don't care about stereo imaging - am I alone. (Poll)

Trigger warning for subjective descriptions :cool: I see a lot of people obsessing about stereo image. Width, depth, height - it all seems to be important. Even more so in the more subjective arenas "...like you could pluck the instruments out of the air..." If I set myself up for listening -...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Chrispy]

No, thats not trick, its called stereo imaging and some gears does it better than others. None of the measurements like SIAND, THD or SNR, FR etc... can tell you how well a gear can do this. Only way is to listen and determine it youtself. I have also mentioned numberous times in the past that this is one main factor that sets budget gear and higher end gear apart.

It may be subjective but its not placebo. Check out the thread below.

I don't care about stereo imaging - am I alone. (Poll)

Trigger warning for subjective descriptions :cool: I see a lot of people obsessing about stereo image. Width, depth, height - it all seems to be important. Even more so in the more subjective arenas "...like you could pluck the instruments out of the air..." If I set myself up for listening -...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Uh huh. Already posted in that thread, don't think it relates otoh. Higher end gear you have particular expectations for just might sound different....to you.

 

[JRS]

You have to take into account that those class AB boards cost probably around $ 8 per channel or less to produce. Class D amps will be hard pressed to manage that. Chips are cheap, coils are less so.

I always wonder how those AB amps are still through hole single side PCB’s. Class D amps need dual sided PCBs and usually need SMD components. Aparently through hole is still cheaper to produce… every cent counts.

Uh huh. Already posted in that thread, don't think it relates otoh. Higher end gear you have particular expectations for just might sound different....to you.

The only explanation that would acct for it is that cheap gear mangles the phase response in some way. I've never seen z phase vs Freq plot for a solid state amp but suspect its very flat up into the high frequencies at least. Hearing phase differences at any frequency is difficult, but higher freq say 10k a 90 degree difference would be 25 up microseconds. Its within human ability to detect such a difference. But there is so little content apart from cymbals up there, I can't see it making much difference in the imaging qualities overall. All of this assumes, znd this is a huge if, that phase relationships weren't mangled by the microphone znd subsequent electronics.

I've given considerable thought about how this elusive quality can be tested and measured. I came up with some ideas--expensive and impractical for a stereo shop as it would require something like turntables and an x-y slide to find the correct speaker placement and toe in to obtain the best imaging possible. Usebvarious tests including the old stereophile tracks of someone walking around a stage.

Then you have a reference amplifier to establish a baseline before swapping out amps to see if listeners pick up a degradation. I can see where it would be great for comparing speakers. Not sure about electronics.

Strongly suspect a placebo effect and one that is easy to disprove by finding no differences in any phase parameters. Absent that its hard to fathom how one amp could be better.

 

[dorakeg]

Uh huh. Already posted in that thread, don't think it relates otoh. Higher end gear you have particular expectations for just might sound different....to you.

Ok....thanks for the reply.

 

[dorakeg]

The only explanation that would acct for it is that cheap gear mangles the phase response in some way. I've never seen z phase vs Freq plot for a solid state amp but suspect its very flat up into the high frequencies at least. Hearing phase differences at any frequency is difficult, but higher freq say 10k a 90 degree difference would be 25 up microseconds. Its within human ability to detect such a difference. But there is so little content apart from cymbals up there, I can't see it making much difference in the imaging qualities overall. All of this assumes, znd this is a huge if, that phase relationships weren't mangled by the microphone znd subsequent electronics.

I've given considerable thought about how this elusive quality can be tested and measured. I came up with some ideas--expensive and impractical for a stereo shop as it would require something like turntables and an x-y slide to find the correct speaker placement and toe in to obtain the best imaging possible. Usebvarious tests including the old stereophile tracks of someone walking around a stage.

Then you have a reference amplifier to establish a baseline before swapping out amps to see if listeners pick up a degradation. I can see where it would be great for comparing speakers. Not sure about electronics.

Strongly suspect a placebo effect and one that is easy to disprove by finding no differences in any phase parameters. Absent that its hard to fathom how one amp could be better.

LEDR is a pretty good way to test.

Online LEDR™ Sound Test | Listening Environment Diagnostic Recording Test

Audio Test Tones : check your stereo system for correct imaging

www.audiocheck.net

However, there is currently no way to measure this effect ojectively other than listening to it. Having said that, I also have to point out that not everyone is capable of hearing the effects mentioned in the site.

 

[bodhi]

However, there is currently no way to measure this effect ojectively other than listening to it. Having said that, I also have to point out that not everyone is capable of hearing the effects mentioned in the site.

And there we have it: the unmeasurable, science defying effect. Might it be that it can usually be heard by people who have bought expensive audiophile amps with their own money?

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

No, thats not trick, its called stereo imaging and some gears does it better than others. None of the measurements like SIAND, THD or SNR, FR etc... can tell you how well a gear can do this. Only way is to listen and determine it youtself. I have also mentioned numberous times in the past that this is one main factor that sets budget gear and higher end gear apart.

It may be subjective but its not placebo. Check out the thread below.

I don't care about stereo imaging - am I alone. (Poll)

Trigger warning for subjective descriptions :cool: I see a lot of people obsessing about stereo image. Width, depth, height - it all seems to be important. Even more so in the more subjective arenas "...like you could pluck the instruments out of the air..." If I set myself up for listening -...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Sorry but I call nonsense on that one.
The only way an amplifier would be able to affect stereo imaging, would be a gross channel imbalance, be it amplitude or phase.
Doesn't matter whether its bass shy, has rolled off high frequencies, or has a high output impedance, leading to resonances and muddy/exaggerated bass.
Doesn't matter whether it has enough power to do transients w/o clipping or not.

As long as both channels are driven equally, stereo imaging would not be affected.

Anecdotal evidence: my 270€ budget, entry level Yammy AVR, every audiophile would laugh at can do stereo imaging just fine.
The only thing that mattered here was me being precise enough during the speaker placement.
2cm actually made a noticeable difference here. :'D

 

[Deleted member 48726]

LEDR is a pretty good way to test.

Online LEDR™ Sound Test | Listening Environment Diagnostic Recording Test

Audio Test Tones : check your stereo system for correct imaging

www.audiocheck.net

However, there is currently no way to measure this effect ojectively other than listening to it. Having said that, I also have to point out that not everyone is capable of hearing the effects mentioned in the site.

I bet it has everything to do with room reflections, reverb and delay, like simulated surround or binaural audio and not so much with the amplifier.
-Unless it has like really really really bad channel separation.

 

[dorakeg]

The only thing that mattered here was me being precise enough during the speaker placement.
2cm actually made a noticeable difference here. :'D

Ok this is something new.

Could you kindly post some additional information to show that 2cm makes a noticeable difference? It would be great if you could also explain what kind of difference and how are you sure that it's not placebo?

 

[dorakeg]

I bet it has everything to do with room reflections, reverb and delay, like simulated surround or binaural audio and not so much with the amplifier.
-Unless it has like really really really bad channel separation.

If you could show some measurements to show that this is the case, that would be awesome. It will also greatly help the audio community and even change the entire audio industry.

Till today, I am not aware of any way that this effect could be measured without resorting to a hearing test.

So, if there is a way to measure this and put it into a number or score (just like sinad, thd, snr etc..) we could also show that the gears have same number and hence any difference has to be placebo.

I fully agreed that ears and memory is never accurate and equipment measurement is the best.

 

[dorakeg]

And there we have it: the unmeasurable, science defying effect. Might it be that it can usually be heard by people who have bought expensive audiophile amps with their own money?

If you could direct me somewhere or show me anything to prove that this effect could be measured it will be great.

I say it cannot be measured only because I have never come across anyone measuring it using some equipment. The only thing I know is that there is subjective hearing test conducted and result is based on answers given by participants.

I am really keen to know how we can replace this hearing test with some form of objective measurement instead.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Ok this is something new.

Could you kindly post some additional information to show that 2cm makes a noticeable difference? It would be great if you could also explain what kind of difference and how are you sure that it's not placebo?

It's a nearfield setup, so the sweet spot is small. That's probably why such a small distance makes a difference.

It was noticeable, that once I misalign the speakers, the center "image" loses focus.

Not sure if it would be the same if the speakers are like 3-4m away from your couch.

 

[Chrispy]

If you could direct me somewhere or show me anything to prove that this effect could be measured it will be great.

I say it cannot be measured only because I have never come across anyone measuring it using some equipment. The only thing I know is that there is subjective hearing test conducted and result is based on answers given by participants.

I am really keen to know how we can replace this hearing test with some form of objective measurement instead.

I'm really interested in this precise "hearing" test you've got.

 

[dorakeg]

It's a nearfield setup, so the sweet spot is small. That's probably why such a small distance makes a difference.

It was noticeable, that once I misalign the speakers, the center "image" loses focus.

Not sure if it would be the same if the speakers are like 3-4m away from your couch.

Ah ok, so its near field. I agreed that in this case, its possible. Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

If you could show some measurements to show that this is the case, that would be awesome. It will also greatly help the audio community and even change the entire audio industry.

Till today, I am not aware of any way that this effect could be measured without resorting to a hearing test.

So, if there is a way to measure this and put it into a number or score (just like sinad, thd, snr etc..) we could also show that the gears have same number and hence any difference has to be placebo.

I fully agreed that ears and memory is never accurate and equipment measurement is the best.

How would it change the audio industry? -The industry has adopted this knowledge since the beginning of stereophonic recording..

dirac.com/stereophonic-system-phantom-sources/
"The basic method behind the placement of sounds in the sound stage involves the use of phantom sources. Sounds can be made to seemingly appear between the two speakers, floating in the air where there is, in fact, no speaker at all. This is accomplished by varying the amplitude and time delay of the signals to the left and right speakers."

 

[dorakeg]

How would it change the audio industry? -The industry has adopted this knowledge since the beginning of stereophonic recording..

dirac.com/stereophonic-system-phantom-sources/
"The basic method behind the placement of sounds in the sound stage involves the use of phantom sources. Sounds can be made to seemingly appear between the two speakers, floating in the air where there is, in fact, no speaker at all. This is accomplished by varying the amplitude and time delay of the signals to the left and right speakers."

LE me ask you this question: How would objective measurement change the industry??

 

[Deleted member 48726]

LE me ask you this question: How would objective measurement change the industry??

I don't know what you are asking.

Have you read the link which says imaging is a product which can be manipulated by delay and amplitude?

 

[JktHifi]

Both are different animal. Should split your budget.
AV Receivers are not HiFi components. Can see that from their websites: Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, etc.

It’s almost same as Tanks vs Armored Vehicles. Tanks are Hi-Fi and Armored Vehicles are Receiver.

 

[Vacceo]

No, thats not trick, its called stereo imaging and some gears does it better than others. None of the measurements like SIAND, THD or SNR, FR etc... can tell you how well a gear can do this. Only way is to listen and determine it youtself. I have also mentioned numberous times in the past that this is one main factor that sets budget gear and higher end gear apart.

It may be subjective but its not placebo. Check out the thread below.

I don't care about stereo imaging - am I alone. (Poll)

Trigger warning for subjective descriptions :cool: I see a lot of people obsessing about stereo image. Width, depth, height - it all seems to be important. Even more so in the more subjective arenas "...like you could pluck the instruments out of the air..." If I set myself up for listening -...

www.audiosciencereview.com

If those differences exist, they do on the speakers, not the electronics unless you use equalization.

 

[dorakeg]

If those differences exist, they do on the speakers, not the electronics unless you use equalization.

So, how do you verify that??