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High end av receiver vs. mid-tier stereo amplifier?

gegegege

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I think stereo amplifier should sound better than av receiver within the same price range, but how would a mid-tier stereo amplifier compare to a high end av receiver? Can't find this kind of comparisons on the internet, curious if anybody has seen such test anywhere?
 

fpitas

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I think stereo amplifier should sound better than av receiver within the same price range, but how would a mid-tier stereo amplifier compare to a high end av receiver? Can't find this kind of comparisons on the internet, curious if anybody has seen such test anywhere?
I'm not so sure about that. Modern AVRs aren't bad at all. The AVR output power is somewhat limited would be my complaint.
 

Berwhale

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There is no 'high end' or 'mid-tier', there is only measured performance :)

An AVR containing well measuring class D amplification modules *can* measure the same as a stereo amplifier built with the same module. The AVR will cost more because it contains more modules and other electronics (although the per module price could be lower as you are 'buying in bulk').
 

dorakeg

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I think stereo amplifier should sound better than av receiver within the same price range, but how would a mid-tier stereo amplifier compare to a high end av receiver? Can't find this kind of comparisons on the internet, curious if anybody has seen such test anywhere?

All AV receivers have space issue. There is limited space and having to squeeze 9-11 channels is not easy feat.

These are the typical traits of some stereo amps which cannot be done in AV receive (does not equate to better performance).

1. High current toroid transformer. This is the preference for amp transformers but I can't say if they are indeed better than E-cores.

2. Huge capacity for power filter caps. You can see 20-40K uF per channel but AV amps are mostly limited to 20-40uF for all channels (space constrain).

3. Symmetrical layout for left and right channel. Separate circuit boards for each channel, esp. power side. Aim to function as a dual mono amp.

4. usually feature multiple transistors for each channel (4-6 are common). AV receive only 2 per channel. More transistors, more headroom. Higher current output.

5. Most stereo amps can drive 4ohm loads and some could double the power for 1/2 the resistance. Eg. 100w@8ohm could double to 200w@4ohm. Some could drive 2ohms as well. Some many even double to 400w. I would say these amps can easily output ~15A of current or more.

Having said all these, I cannot say if they translate to any performance improvement or better sound quality. I believe there are situations where additional power will benefit esp. for demanding speakers/music but not always.

I also want to point out that measured performance does not always translate into audible performance. Eg. If you compare 2 Amps, one with sinad of 90 and the other day 110, you will not hear any "magic" in the 110 and expect huge differenc between the 2. I would even say they will sound largely the same. Measurements are a great way to determine performance but do not go chasing after numbers. There isn't a need to upgrade your gear just because yours doesn't have signed of 100.

Price also does not translate into better performance in most situations. I would say the traditional way to "pairing" is still important. If you bought a pair of speakers that cost $50k(extreme case), you obviously wouldnt use them on a $1000 amp and vice versa.
 

Putter

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The usual statement is that amps with less than 1% THD, which is basically all of them, operating within their normal range will sound identical. The normal range of course can be smaller with an AV receiver feeding 5 or 7 or 11... channels, but most people don't listen with more than a few watts of power.

I do take issue with a few of your 'facts'.
The idea that amps can double down with halving impedance is often repeated, but outside of a few super heavyweight ultra expensive amps, I've never seen an amp that actually doubled down in watts when tested at halved impedance. Also, you WILL NOT hear a difference between a sinad of 110 or 90 or 70. Also the economies of scale typically make a mid-priced stereo amp cost as much as an expensive AV receiver. Having said this it's a good idea to make sure the AV receiver has preamp outs for at least 2 channels if use or room size indicates that more power might be needed.
 

Beave

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Don't forget economies of scale. It makes a HUGE difference. These days, AVRs sell in far higher quantities than stereo receivers or amps.

Just look at the Denon stereo receiver that has HDMI inputs, or the Marantz stereo receiver with HDMI, or the Onkyo stereo receiver with HDMI. All they did was take the power supply, amplifier circuitry, and HDMI board from their entry level AVR lineup, then remove the amplifiers for the center and surround channels. Then they charged more than the AVR it was based on.
 

bungle

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Just look at the Denon stereo receiver that has HDMI inputs, or the Marantz stereo receiver with HDMI, or the Onkyo stereo receiver with HDMI. All they did was take the power supply, amplifier circuitry, and HDMI board from their entry level AVR lineup, then remove the amplifiers for the center and surround channels. Then they charged more than the AVR it was based on.
Any links to such products?

Edit: I guess this: https://www.denon.com/en-us/product/av-receivers/dra-800h (doesn’t look too expensive)

They should go further and rip-off the bottom part of that and just give couple of xlr outputs.
 

geek101

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I think stereo amplifier should sound better than av receiver within the same price range, but how would a mid-tier stereo amplifier compare to a high end av receiver? Can't find this kind of comparisons on the internet, curious if anybody has seen such test anywhere?
How do you exactly define “high end amplifier” and “mid-tier stereo amplifier” ?
 

JRS

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I'd love to find an entry level AVR that has class D amps. You'd think it would be a no brainer to buy different D amp chips, and put the power up front. But from what I have seen almost al have equal power to each channel and a class AB topology. Headscratcher--many good car amps have gone D.
 

Chrispy

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I'd love to find an entry level AVR that has class D amps. You'd think it would be a no brainer to buy different D amp chips, and put the power up front. But from what I have seen almost al have equal power to each channel and a class AB topology. Headscratcher--many good car amps have gone D.
Pioneer did the class D avr for a while. I suspect we will see more class d avrs soon, tho.
I think stereo amplifier should sound better than av receiver within the same price range, but how would a mid-tier stereo amplifier compare to a high end av receiver? Can't find this kind of comparisons on the internet, curious if anybody has seen such test anywhere?
You mean an integrated amp I assume? Why would one sound better particularly? There are many who claim avrs don't sound good, but not my experience. Sounds as good as my 2ch gear (separates, too, not just an integrated amp), but I find avrs far more useful for more media (both digital and multich aspects as well as working with video) so barely use the 2ch gear any more. The one thing the avrs tend to lack is a powerful amp section, so maybe comments about sq come primarily from those with inefficient/low impedance speakers? I do tend to get a fairly full featured avr, but for a bedroom a while back I got a cheap Sony avr, and it sounds fine, too.
 

voodooless

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I'd love to find an entry level AVR that has class D amps. You'd think it would be a no brainer to buy different D amp chips, and put the power up front. But from what I have seen almost al have equal power to each channel and a class AB topology. Headscratcher--many good car amps have gone D.
You have to take into account that those class AB boards cost probably around $ 8 per channel or less to produce. Class D amps will be hard pressed to manage that. Chips are cheap, coils are less so.

I always wonder how those AB amps are still through hole single side PCB’s. Class D amps need dual sided PCBs and usually need SMD components. Aparently through hole is still cheaper to produce… every cent counts.
 
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gegegege

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I have JBL studio 530 and 580, tried to pair them with X3600H and CXA61, CXA61 sounds much better to me than the AVR, more details and better sound stage. So I am just wondering if flagship AVRs that cost a lot more will sound better for music than the stereo amps like CXA61.
 
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Chrispy

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I have JBL studio 530 and 580, tried to pair them with X3600H and CXA61, CXA61 sounds much better to me than the 2 AVRs, more details and better sound stage. So I am just wondering if flagship AVRs that cost a lot more will sound better for music than the stereo amps like CXA61.
Sound stage? How would the amp affect that? How did you perform the comparison? Blinded? Level matched? The avr in direct mode only?
 
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gegegege

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Sound stage? How would the amp affect that? How did you perform the comparison? Blinded? Level matched? The avr in direct mode only?
Maybe I used the wrong word, still a newbie here. What I meant was that I can hear instruments from different positions clearer and they are wider apart. I don't have equipment for proper testing so just relying on my ears :), and yes, the X3600H was in pure direct mode.
 

morpheusX

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I would take an AVR with Dirac/Trinnov/room Perfect over any stereo amp.

Assuming that an AVR has enough power for taking your speakers to your desired SPL, the final result from an AVR, properly calibrated through an advanced DSP, will run circles around any high-end stereo amp.

Obviously, if the speakers have too low sensitivity and cannot reach the desired SPL with the AVR, the high-end stereo amp will sound best at those levels.

Reasonable sensitive speakers, around 89db, can achieve 99db with just 50W, at 3m to the MLP.
This calculator is useful to calculate SPL: https://mehlau.net/audio/spl

Obviously, audiophiles will swear by their high cost high end amps, but they also believe in cable lifters, so there's that ;)
 

Chrispy

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Maybe I used the wrong word, still a newbie here. What I meant was that I can hear instruments from different positions clearer and they are wider apart. I don't have equipment for proper testing so just relying on my ears :), and yes, the X3600H was in pure direct mode.
I forgot to ask you to describe the differences, so thanks for that. More sounds like your brain/ears playing tricks on you (not unusual), most likely just a level difference or your expectation bias sneaking in. If you didn't move the speakers (soundstage is a combo of what is baked into the recording as well as your speakers) it's doubtful that was what actually happened. Ears don't make good test instruments, and sonic memory isn't very good either (assuming you used the avr and integrated amp alternately rather than simultaneously).
 

Abe_W

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I would take an AVR with Dirac/Trinnov/room Perfect over any stereo amp.

Assuming that an AVR has enough power for taking your speakers to your desired SPL, the final result from an AVR, properly calibrated through an advanced DSP, will run circles around any high-end stereo amp.

Obviously, if the speakers have too low sensitivity and cannot reach the desired SPL with the AVR, the high-end stereo amp will sound best at those levels.

Reasonable sensitive speakers, around 89db, can achieve 99db with just 50W, at 3m to the MLP.
This calculator is useful to calculate SPL: https://mehlau.net/audio/spl

Obviously, audiophiles will swear by their high cost high end amps, but they also believe in cable lifters, so there's that ;)
Power amp sections are compromised in AVRs. A preamp processor and separate power amp should go head to toe against exorbitantly priced audiophile amps.
 

JRS

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You have to take into account that those class AB boards cost probably around $ 8 per channel or less to produce. Class D amps will be hard pressed to manage that. Chips are cheap, coils are less so.

I always wonder how those AB amps are still through hole single side PCB’s. Class D amps need dual sided PCBs and usually need SMD components. Aparently through hole is still cheaper to produce… every cent counts.
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You have to take into account that those class AB boards cost probably around $ 8 per channel or less to produce. Class D amps will be hard pressed to manage that. Chips are cheap, coils are less so.

I always wonder how those AB amps are still through hole single side PCB’s. Class D amps need dual sided PCBs and usually need SMD components. Aparently through hole is still cheaper to produce… every cent counts.
I get that copper is pricey these days, but help me to understand these Infineon gallium-nitride based class D chips that are about a cm square and can deliver 100W. They still need a PS of course, but the AB pcb still requires a PS as well. No? I have no idea what this chips cost in quantity, but I suspect the $75 doller 50 x 2 amp Ayima makes uses them. Not doubting what you say, just trying to determine if I should wait another year or two b4 investing in an AVR.
 
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