High end av receiver vs. mid-tier stereo amplifier?

[Vacceo]

So, how do you verify that??

If the electronics are used level-matched and they are not awful, all the rest being equal (speaker placement and room being the same), the differences should be next to none.

I have done that with multiple AVR's and amps and I found no noticeable difference.

If you don't trust your perception (and you shouldn't), some REW measurements will confirm it.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

So, how do you verify that??

As you made the unlikely claim. Could you please provide some evidence why well engineered and non broken audio electronics would affect sound stage?

Soundstage is affected by speakers, room and recording, not by electronics.

 

[dorakeg]

If the electronics are used leve-matched and they are not awful, all the rest being equal (speaker placement and room being the same), the differences should be next to none.

I have done that with multiple AVR's and amps and I found no noticeable difference.

If you don't trust your perception (and you shouldn't), some REW measurements will confirm it.

Ok thanks, this is what I have been trying to ask all the time and nobody could prove me with an answer till you. Thanks, I really appreciate it.

I will take it that REW measurements are what that will confirm how good the sonic imagery of a sound system is.

 

[Vacceo]

Ok thanks, this is what I have been trying to ask all the time and nobody could prove me with an answer till you. Thanks, I really appreciate it.

I will take it that REW measurements are what that will confirm how good the sonic imagery of a sound system is.

If it exists, it can be measured and will be reflected in a graph.

Perception is tricky, though, and what your brain interprets as something may be due to factors others than strict sonic performance (something as trivial as liking the shape and color of the equipment).

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

So, how do you verify that??

Should be rather simple:

If we maintain that soundstage results from timing differences and differences in amplitude between the channels, all one would need to measure is:

a) channel signal delay (should be equal to both channels in non defective electronics, since both channels have a mirrored electrical path)
b) channel amplitude (should be equal in both channels, at least beyond human perception threshold)

 

[Deleted member 48726]

So, how do you verify that??

Is an amplifier in itself capable of delaying and manipulating signals to each channel IR to frequency?
If it does, I don't want it. Method could be what @Aerith Gainsborough proposes.

 

[JRS]

LEDR is a pretty good way to test.

Online LEDR™ Sound Test | Listening Environment Diagnostic Recording Test

Audio Test Tones : check your stereo system for correct imaging

www.audiocheck.net

However, there is currently no way to measure this effect ojectively other than listening to it. Having said that, I also have to point out that not everyone is capable of hearing the effects mentioned in the site.

Still subjective but moving in the right direction have volunteers to use sa protractor with a pointer to delineate solid angle.along with an estimate of distance which could be 1 thru 5 with 1 at the plane or forward of speakers and 2 thru 5 various distances depending on music type znd likely audience space. Test could be with speakers behind an acoustically transparent speakers or do blindfolded. Its a start at least.

 

[JRS]

If it exists, it can be measured and will be reflected in a graph.

Perception is tricky, though, and what your brain interprets as something may be due to factors others than strict sonic performance (something as trivial as liking the shape and color of the equipment).

What kind of graph could capture this? I suspect its not so easy. Not even close.

 

[JRS]

I

Is an amplifier in itself capable of delaying and manipulating signals to each channel IR to frequency?
If it does, I don't want it. Method could be what @Aerith Gainsborough proposes.

I suspect it wouldn't be so easy. One could use test tones.But I would bet w/o DSP and in the listening sweetspot speakers will perform similarly after differences in dispersion are accounted for. Intuitively it would seem how coherently the wave pattern is launched. I believe this is reflected the improvement DSP can add. And what's critical is getting a good impulse response first, then tackle room effects. At least IME this seems to tighten focus and anchor the soundstage. May all be my imagination however.

 

[Vacceo]

What kind of graph could capture this? I suspect its not so easy. Not even close.

A graph that shows in axis and off axis frequency responses both in the vertical and horizontal. Check how much those change.

 

[Beave]

Both are different animal. Should split your budget.
AV Receivers are not HiFi components. Can see that from their websites: Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, etc.

It’s almost same as Tanks vs Armored Vehicles. Tanks are Hi-Fi and Armored Vehicles are Receiver.

In what way are AV receivers not hifi components? Do they not cost enough? Is that the problem?

 

[Beave]

Soundstage differences between different amps (or DACs) is almost always a figment of the imagination of the listener and can't be replicated in controlled (level-matched blind comparisons).

 

[mhardy6647]

Don't forget about good old channel separation.

 

[Chrispy]

Don't forget about good old channel separation.

Whut, crosstalk?

 

[mhardy6647]

Whut, crosstalk?

Yeppers.
I presume channel separation isn't infinite (e.g., one zillion dB*) even in McIntosh amplifiers. I could be wrong, though.

__________________
* you know, give or take.

 

[Chrispy]

Yeppers.
I presume channel separation isn't infinite (e.g., one zillion dB*) even in McIntosh amplifiers. I could be wrong, though.

__________________
* you know, give or take.

I always think of the Douglas Self mention that if a minimum level is met, it's absolutely not audible. Like 35dB IIRC. Way below spec of anything decent.

 

[mhardy6647]

I always think of the Douglas Self mention that if a minimum level is met, it's absolutely not audible. Like 35dB IIRC. Way below spec of anything decent.

Doubtless he had appropriately statistically powered data to support that.
ASR would expect nothing less!

 

[Chrispy]

Doubtless he had appropriately statistically powered data to support that.
ASR would expect nothing less!

Been a while but believe he did back it up that way. I generally just sort of smile when reading reports of how much mono blocks improved separation

 

[mhardy6647]

Been a while but believe he did back it up that way. I generally just sort of smile when reading reports of how much mono blocks improved separation

Well, I've got to say I am really curious now! I'll look into it.
Empirically (thinking about MPX stereo FM and phono cartridges), I think that neighborhood of 30 to 35 dB is about right.

 

[JRS]

A graph that shows in axis and off axis frequency responses both in the vertical and horizontal. Check how much those change.

Still dont think that's allbyhrrr is yo it. No argument you want good off axis performance, preferably symmetrical over, and here is where things get muddy fast, as wide a range as is practical? Or even better uniformity over a smaller angle is what some think is ideal. I still think that there should be a great impulse response or imaging will be degraded. But really don't know nor if studies thstbseek to address this. I'd be curious to see what others have done as I think we almost there in terms of impeccable FR, even when derived by DSP. You should check out the BACCH tech out if Princeton. It's been said by respectable reviewers and a few audiophiles here that two channels can be manipulated into gob smacking imaging. Interestingly, a very high directivity quotient is needed to milk the best performance. They also do head tracking. For s guy in an apt and interestdd ore in music than theater it is the E ticket to audio paradise.