Am I wasting money? AVR recommendations.

[Chrispy]

I really appreciate your reply. We don't typically listen to things at high volume. But, from what I have understood, McIntosh tends to last very long time while giving a very low noise floor. I can always upgrade the receiver/processor while keeping the amp.

We were so close to purchasing the Arcam, thus causing the concern and doubt.

I've never considered Arcam myself for avr, rather stick to Denon, Marantz and maybe Yamaha (newest line from Sony might be interesting, waiting to see a test/review). McIntosh wouldn't be an amp I'd go out of my way to buy these days, as there are more cost effective solutions...but sounds like you may have an exceptional deal on one (and they don't tend to lose value, so even if it didn't work out you could likely recoup your funds or maybe even make a buck). Only reason I'd upgrade an avr is generally for a feature/functionality I want.

 

[HifiLover]

You know, a fine Class AB McIntosh amplifier is like a Rolex watch, it's an heirloom. As to 5/7 channel, unless you are buying a full pre-pro, don't bother. You'd be surprised how infrequently the surround and height channels actually fire up in a movie. A solid 2-channel amp will drive your low-impedance speakers fine and take the load off the AVR's power supply.

If you know a solid deal on a MC152, let me know because I'm in the market!

Sounds good, friend!

I was going to ask you how you bought the 702. What was it connected to when you auditioned it?

Much newer Denon and Marantz than what I have. X6700? I must admit that I definitely fell into the crowd that stated separates will promise much less distortion. I will also admit that I have a lot more to learn as well. Which is why I'm even entertaining the idea of Buckeye Amps (even without a massive discount).

Well then most of your decision is made. You just need to decide which AVR I’d suggest Denon or Marantz because you can improve the SINAD by channel by separating off the internal amps from the respective pre-out. External amps are your choice but again I would recommend Class D. Below is one of Amir’s reviews.

Buckeye 6 Channel Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Buckeye Hypex NC252MP based, 6-channel amplifier. It costs US $1149 as of this writing. The owner/builder is @Buckeye Amps on our forum. The looks are fine for a well-priced build: The unit is quite light courtesy of rather thin sheet...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Do Buckeye Amps have unbalanced options for devices like the x4800h?

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Anthem mrx 740. Read Audioholics review. You can pair with any amps if required.

 

[techsamurai]

Much newer Denon and Marantz than what I have. X6700? I must admit that I definitely fell into the crowd that stated separates will promise much less distortion. I will also admit that I have a lot more to learn as well. Which is why I'm even entertaining the idea of Buckeye Amps (even without a massive discount).

Yeah, I auditioned the 702 S2 at Best Buy and the audition lasted 5 minutes. We tried all the AVRs they had and it just sounded horrible. I can't explain to you how bad it sounded which is exactly what Andrew Robinson said about the 702 Signature. They need power.

My daughter has grown up with the old 703s bi-amped and she thought that there was something wrong with the speakers. We checked the drivers, the cables, everything. Apparently, they need power to sound good and once you power them adequately, they are amazing.

If I were you, I would try a toroidal and a Class D and see which one you like. I would also bi-amp them.

I can't speak for you but I would do that before I buy a new AVR just to hear what my system sounds like at its best. Do you have a subwoofer? The lack of a sub taxes an AVR immensely. I ran mine for 12 years without a sub while I was waiting for subs to evolve into the 21st century which they finally have.

 

[Chrispy]

Sounds good, friend!


Much newer Denon and Marantz than what I have. X6700? I must admit that I definitely fell into the crowd that stated separates will promise much less distortion. I will also admit that I have a lot more to learn as well. Which is why I'm even entertaining the idea of Buckeye Amps (even without a massive discount).



Do Buckeye Amps have unbalanced options for devices like the x4800h?

You can just use a cable adapter....rca to xlr. Separates haven't proven to provide any particular advantages in terms of spec (let alone being audible). Buckeye is at the top of my list should I go amp shopping again.

 

[dlaloum]

My opinion for what its worth...

I would aim for something that can run Dirac DLBC, and will hopefully get DL-ART late this year or early next year.

The bass management of DLBC is what you are aiming for, and the ability to get full spatial roomEQ once DL-ART becomes available.

You other requirement is based on your speakers - you need something with enough power to make a relatively difficult (low impedance) speaker "sing" - so it needs to have a robust power supply capable of providing enough current (rather than power) for your speakers.

Typically 120W@8ohm will be ample for most rooms and most setups - but most amps (and AVR's) provide no information on what it can put out into 3 ohm... if you are lucky the amp you are considering will have been independently tested at 2 ohm... and that may provide a reference point.

In terms of AVR's - my target would be something capable of 7.2.4 in terms of processing, and in terms of power, you need a beefy power supply and more than 120W@8ohm, OR you need an external amp suitable for your speakers, and in that case, the AVR would ideally be able to handle the remaining (surround & height) speakers - which are typically a much more benign load, and require much lower power/current in any case.

If you are planning on sticking to a 5.1.2 setup (ie: no multiple subs) - then you may be able to step slightly down and save some $ in the AVR, however even with a single sub, DLBC can take advantage of the full range capabilities of your main L/R speakers... so there are gains to be had from DLBC - and DL-ART come 2024 will be able to take this a notch further.

If you accept going for only Dirac or Audyssey (without aiming for DLBC) - you could go for the Integra 3.4 (7.1.4 pre outs) with an external amp for your mains - this is potentially the most economical AVR with Dirac and full pre-outs - the Onkyo NR7100 or Pioneer LX305 provide alternatives, but only provide pre-out for the mains... so more limited in terms of future proofing.
The next series up in that family (Onkyo RZ50, Pioneer LX505, Integra 5.4) have a little more power, and can process an additional pair of channels, they have full pre-outs.

These are all Dirac Live full range AVR's... and the upper models may be enough for your 702's... maybe... (a case of "suck it and see")

The Integra 8.4 has only just been announced, (and many of us are expecting at least an Onkyo equivalent and perhaps a Pioneer equivalent to be announced shortly...) - this is a 7.2.4 AVR, but with substantial amplifier upgrades - it has internal amps for all 11 channels, and is rated at 150W@8ohm stereo - with what looks like a robust power supply.... this means it should be able to handle your 702's quite easily!
It also is launching with Dirac DLBC as an option, and most likely will have DL-ART available in late 2023/early 2024 (at a guess).

Other options are the D&M AVR's - the X3800 has all the required processing, and should have Dirac available shortly (but Audyssey is no slouch either) - DLBC should be available next year, and potentially DL-ART - the amps are the weak point, I would look for an external amp for your mains if going in at this level.
If you go up a notch to the X4800 (and marantz equivalent) - then I would be tempted to "suck it and see" - same as for the Onkyo RZ50 level - it may have enough power for the 702's or it may not.

Another option might be taking a step back a generation and going for a Denon X6700 or Marantz equivalent, and sticking with Audyssey - there could be some bargains out there at that level.... it is the previous generation, no Dirac option there, but an excellent AVR, with enough power to probably handle the 702's well - and all the current codecs, etc...

Personally my setup is still 5.1 - and I am preparing to move it to 5.2.4... I am hoping for an AVR which will support DL-ART, which I think will provide a paradigm shift in terms of performance... I find the Integra 8.4 to be the most exciting recent product, and almost a bulls-eye for my target needs... I too have demanding speakers, with impedance bottoming out at 1.6ohm - so a "beefy" AVR, where I can simplify the setup and remove the amps I am using for the mains at the moment, is attractive... and the AV10/AV1 models from D&M are too rich for my budget.

Hope that helps

 

[HifiLover]

You can just use a cable adapter....rca to xlr. Separates haven't proven to provide any particular advantages in terms of spec (let alone being audible). Buckeye is at the top of my list should I go amp shopping again.

Ah... uh... yeah. Those do exist. Thanks for being gracious.

I can't believe how far Class D has come. I really need to look more closely at this company and Class D is general. I worry about lack musicality and lifespan. I don't generally upgrade often. I like to keep my stuff for a long period of time and just enjoy it. But just reading reviews, people really do seem to like them.

 

[Chrispy]

Ah... uh... yeah. Those do exist. Thanks for being gracious.

I can't believe how far Class D has come. I really need to look more closely at this company and Class D is general. I worry about lack musicality and lifespan. I don't generally upgrade often. I like to keep my stuff for a long period of time and just enjoy it. But just reading reviews, people really do seem to like them.

I hate the term musicality, have no idea what that means for an amp. I've used class D amps for more than 10 years now.

 

[dlaloum]

Ah... uh... yeah. Those do exist. Thanks for being gracious.

I can't believe how far Class D has come. I really need to look more closely at this company and Class D is general. I worry about lack musicality and lifespan. I don't generally upgrade often. I like to keep my stuff for a long period of time and just enjoy it. But just reading reviews, people really do seem to like them.

My Vintage Quad 606's (late 1980's) are still superb sounding amps, and they handle my difficult speakers well...

Having said that, I am running a pair of Class D Crown XLS2500 amps for my mains... they can put out 440W@8ohm and 1200W@2ohm - they sound great! - is it excessive, yes absolutely, on the other hand I picked them up used for US$250... and could resell them now, for probably twice what I paid for them.... no complaints!
Although the Crowns lack in audiophile cred.... their XLS amps are quite astounding value, especially for difficult speakers, and frequently available used, as there is substantial turnover at the "garage band" level.... and they are built for pro use, so they can take a beating...

 

[Rottmannash]

There's not a lot of data out there about Arcam's amplifiers. They're probably fine, plenty of power on tap in their Class G offerings. But they wouldn't be my first choice. I would go with a more established brand in amplifiers, something from Parasound, Rotel, NAD, Monolith, McIntosh, etc.

Parasound A21+

Parasound Halo A 21+ Stereo Amplifier Reviewed - HomeTheaterReview

After 15 years of devoted service, Parasound has retired its beloved Halo A 21 amplifier. Its replacement, the Halo A 21+, is priced a little higher at $2,995. But what, exactly, do you get for that extra coin? As the...

hometheaterreview.com

NAD M23

NAD M23 Master Series Stereo Amplifier Test Report

The NAD M23 is a 200wpc stereo amp that utilizes the SOTA Class D Purifi 1ET400A reference design to push the envelope of performance and efficiency. Is this the best measuring amp in our 23+ year history?

www.audioholics.com

Rotel RB-1582 MKII

Rotel RC-1572MKII Stereo Preamplifier and RB-1582MKII Power Amplifier Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com

The Rotel RC-1572 Stereo Preamplifier and RB-1582MKII Power Amplifier are two boxes, with loads of connectivity, and gobs of power.

hometheaterhifi.com

Monoprice Monolith

Monoprice Monolith 7-Channel Amplifier Review

The Monoprice Monolith is an astounding 7-channel, 200wpc amplifier with two massive teroidal transformers delivering gobs of power and textbook performance at a value price point. Our amp of the year

www.audioholics.com

Lots of good options at a variety of price-points!

Or Buckeye Purifi or the new Hypex line of modules. Cool, powerful and efficient, as well as very performant.

 

[Rottmannash]

Sounds good, friend!


Much newer Denon and Marantz than what I have. X6700? I must admit that I definitely fell into the crowd that stated separates will promise much less distortion. I will also admit that I have a lot more to learn as well. Which is why I'm even entertaining the idea of Buckeye Amps (even without a massive discount).



Do Buckeye Amps have unbalanced options for devices like the x4800h?

No. One has to use RCA>XLR adaptors. I'm using them w/ the RZ50 to a 3 ch Buckeye Purifi and a 2 ch Buckeye 252 and no problems.

 

[Golfx]

Ah... uh... yeah. Those do exist. Thanks for being gracious.

I can't believe how far Class D has come. I really need to look more closely at this company and Class D is general. I worry about lack musicality and lifespan. I don't generally upgrade often. I like to keep my stuff for a long period of time and just enjoy it. But just reading reviews, people really do seem to like them.

Below link is from Audioholics string started by a knowledgeable member there and here. It is in support of Class D tech and presents a nice summary of attributes. Regarding longevity Class D amps do not produce much heat at all. Heat takes a toll on electronics.

Class D power amplifiers

Last time I shopped for the most transparent speakers I could find in the below $10,000 range I found them in a store in Toronto that powered the speakers with, surprisingly, class D amplifiers. In the end I bought the speakers without requesting them to try driving the speakers with my kind of...

forums.audioholics.com

Some Class D come with both RCA and XLR outputs. Nord audio is one of them.

 

[techsamurai]

I was just talking to someone who bought a Buckeye for his Revel F36 and his Marantz SR8015 and he heard no sonic differences and that came as a shock. I know the 8015 has a toroidal and will give sound that's very similar to separates but that's still surprising.

What's the capacitance on the Buckeye?

 

[Rottmannash]

I was just talking to someone who bought a Buckeye for his Revel F36 and his Marantz SR8015 and he heard no sonic differences and that came as a shock. I know the 8015 has a toroidal and will give sound that's very similar to separates but that's still surprising.

What's the capacitance on the Buckeye?

Ask him to crank it up and see if there's a difference. There is with my class D amps vs A/B amps or AVRs.

 

[Mnyb]

I was just talking to someone who bought a Buckeye for his Revel F36 and his Marantz SR8015 and he heard no sonic differences and that came as a shock. I know the 8015 has a toroidal and will give sound that's very similar to separates but that's still surprising.

What's the capacitance on the Buckeye?

Ask him to crank it up and see if there's a difference. There is with my class D amps vs A/B amps or AVRs.

Yes if the AVR is capable of driving the speakers to the levels the owners listen at there should be no differences.
You may not be able to drive the speakers to their limit either ? But if you don’t use that ....

The difference may show up in a larger room and or higher spl or both .

 

[Mnyb]

It will also depend on the material girl singing to sparse piano migth not wreck any amp something intense with a shedload of sounds and instruments in the mix and a lot of bass migth do the trick.

 

[techsamurai]

Yes if the AVR is capable of driving the speakers to the levels the owners listen at there should be no differences.
You may not be able to drive the speakers to their limit either ? But if you don’t use that ....

The difference may show up in a larger room and or higher spl or both .

I would have expected some differences even at normal volumes unless the toroidal is identical to the Class D which I guess is great for both Buckeye and Marantz. You want a Marantz toroidal - get Buckeye Hypex amps! You want Class D Hypex amplification from an AVR? Marantz has you covered with the Toroidal 8015!

 

[FrankW]

Some Class D come with both RCA and XLR outputs. Nord audio is one of them.

Did you mean inputs?

 

[Mnyb]

You have to think about these things as an envelope or a limit good amps are very linear and thus amplify .
But sometimes they hit the “wall” and can’t cope or you have a noise limit some amps are noisier than others distortion has to be quite severe to be easily audible on music who can actually mask many sins if your not extremely familiar with the recording .

 

[Mnyb]

You have to think about these things as an envelope or a limit good amps are very linear and thus amplify .
But sometimes they hit the “wall” and can’t cope or you have a noise limit some amps are noisier than others distortion has to be quite severe to be easily audible on music who can actually mask many sins if your not extremely familiar with the recording .

Or a weak amp has a small “comfort zone” where it work as intended a better amp can work properly in more severe conditions.

Or in your friends case revel may have done decent speaker that don’t abuse the amps to much . There’s probably speakers out there that would put an AVR into protection mode at the first party you have