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How can bogus claims and inferior audio thrive in a competitive market?

Earthbound

Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2022
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I keep running into the same addlepated thought, here and in other forums. It goes something like this:



Even here at ASR, I've seen a few (just a few) posters go down the tubes trying to defend the idea. On Audiogon it's practically gospel from some of the most prolific posters. So let me just lay out here why it is nonsense, and I can link to it if it comes up again.

Let me state my claim explicitly (in after-posting edit): Market success proves neither a)better fidelity/accuracy, b) better sound quality, nor c) better engineering quality. It proves only that a product met the revealed preferences of some buyers, which may include, but are not limited to those three criteria. In real life, there are many criteria that complement, confuse, or even obscure these functional sound criteria. It is fine to use inaudible criteria, but sloppily confusing them with sound quality, or, worse, claiming market success *must correspond* to audible quality, only muddies the waters for those of us who prioritize fidelity and sound quality.

I am not anti-market, in fact I've been called a "market fundamentalist" by some. I make my living in financial markets. Markets allocate capital to societal preferences and capacity far better than top-down planning can. But look at the way I stated it: "preferences", "capacity", "better than top-down planning". Markets are not all-knowing, they are not moral judges, and they reflect preferences that can be self-destructive. Consider, for instance, lottery tickets, which face staggering demand for objectively minuscule expected value. There are a few bona fide instances of market failure, and even more market outcomes that are not, for example, healthy. If you want to be successful in financial markets, you need to understand cognitive bias, which we will discuss here momentarily. Actually, if these biases/behavioral irrationalities didn't exist, there would be no arbitrage profits in markets.

What do we mean by a market success? It means that people made enough purchases for the “successful” seller to survive. In audio we often don't know if they are making a decent profit, but let's assume, arguendo, that they are. So we say someone has achieved market success if they are making money selling a type of audio gear. That means that customers are, in a sense, voting for that gear, on a dollar-profit-weighted basis. Success can come from making an insanely profitable sale to one or two people, or it might come from a less profitable sale to a lot of people. Margin or volume, or both.

So there's the first flaw in the theory - a small number of high margin buyers can keep a company afloat. At the very high-priced end, If two dribbling morons give a vendor a 10,000% profit margin on five figure liquid metal cable and a custom burn-in device, the vendor may make a profit and declare himself a success. At the lower-cost end, where many tweaks reside, the lower the cost of the component or tweak, the less dollar volume it takes to “succeed”. Like these, for instance. There's hardly any fixed overhead or much marginal product cost associated with some tweaks, and the vendor can survive indefinitely with very few customers. One of the tweaks on that list involves only a phone call, thus it has almost zero marginal cost. These kinds of low-volume, low cost transactions are insufficient to generalize about customer preference and utility.

The next thing we have to discuss is 'value', or perhaps utility (in the economics sense):



Notice that utility in the examples comes from not just how strong the deadbolt is, or the (sound?) quality of the movie in some dimension, but from any aspect of customer satisfaction (of want). Preferences, or each buyer's definition of "value', reflect utility outside of strictly functional qualities. For the purposes of this discussion, we can use "value" and "utility" interchangeably. Proponents of the argument stated at the outset tend to use "value". The point here isn't the term, but the fact that value comprises multiple criteria (conscious and unconscious) that are not strictly audible sonic quality. They may also include not just engineering (non-audible) quality, at least the kind that we can measure.

I submit that high end buyers have all kinds of inaudible and non-engineering wants to satisfy. Even more important, we are only barely aware of some of them when we spend our money. Here are a few:

Signaling

Signaling is simply sending information without stating or explaining it. Signaling is ubiquitous in human interaction - we signal status, we signal our knowledge, we signal our job fitness or academic achievements and we signal our wealth.

Purchasing luxury, or very expensive, goods is a way to signal wealth and status. People do it with cars, watches, clothes, houses, art, and even philanthropy. That big wristwatch says you are wealthy enough to afford it. It certainly doesn't tell time better, nor is it necessarily more visible to your presbyopic eyes.

Do you think your college education -strictly what you *learned* in college - was worth the tuition? Would it be worth GWU's tuition of $57,500? Is GWU? One of the most fascinating books I've read recently suggests that college isn’t about learning at all. I went to Yale, but I don't think the *education* there is any better than a number of much cheaper colleges. I haven't found too many people who would argue that. So what are we paying for? Networking, signaling to employers, status, fancy facilities, access to recruiting, sports opporunities...the list goes on.

Robin Hanson, of GMU, writes a lot about signaling. One of the most pernicious signaling effects in this day and age is "inward apology". This is when you stick your neck out to believe something ridiculous in order to signal your loyalty to a movement or group:



I bet any of you can think of an example. Conspiracy theories are a big one. Think about one aspect of this: Inward apologetics must be costly to be effective signaling. Like blowing a lot of money on cable risers, perhaps? Or doubling down on internet forums about quantum stabilizers? If you were a dealer, might you engage in this behavior? If you had spent years building an objectively inferior system and becoming a big shot on Audiogon, would you do this? "Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made "

Revealed Preference

We can't discuss signaling without revealed preference. Know of anyone who flies a private jet but can't stop preaching about global warming? Do you think people virtue signal, while being hypocrites in their personal life? This is revealed preference - when your actions betray a different set of priorities than your words. Audiophiles try to conceal their revealed preference by inventing nonsense or non-descriptive sonic characteristics like Pace and Rhythm and Timing, as distinct from measurable rise times and frequency response. They say they care about "resolution" but buy an objectively concealing low S/N DAC.

Looks
Here the intersection with wristwatches and cars (also predominantly male hobbies) is strong. Look hard at the Primaluna amplifier below. The measurements are bad, and suggest unpredictable performance, particularly with variable loads. But that Italian design, oh my! Can you tell me that they, or any tube amp manufacturer, aren't selling the visual appeal of glowing tubes? A little tech-meets-modern, or steampunk.

I just asked my wife to describe this style, and the first words she said were "phallic brutalism". Well, it is a male-dominated hobby.

View attachment 36558

It isn't just that buyers want something that looks good, they want something that loudly signals their hobby and the status in the hobby they believe they have achieved. They want their equipment to scream "I have esoteric but refined tastes". Certainly there's also lots of evidence that staring at an impressive object like this will "prime" the viewer into appreciating the sound, the other parts of the experience.

Having mentioned "priming", we should consider some other behavioral finance effects. <--that link will take you to a nice summary with a top-ten list of known behavioral irrationalities. You can hover over each item on the list to see a short description. Many of these effects were identified in experiments with large numbers of market/competitive transactions, and have also been observed in real world transactions. Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky's nobel prize is based on Prospect Theory, which is a sort of synthesis of these effects. They are real and pernicious, and awareness does not necessarily make them go away.

The most relevant of these for High End Audio, I think, are as follows:

Narrative fallacy (I realize I have this one - well, I have all of them to some extent, but I think this one is strong with me) - we want to believe a good story. That lonely guy in his garage fiddling with MOSFETs has invented something that completely blows the big brands out of the water. Forget all that expensive Harmon research. Those wacky rebels at PS audio fiddled around with FPGAs and just totally solved all the alleged audible problems with digital audio, despite decades of well-funded research by specialists. And they keep doing it every six months - "night and day". We want to believe these kinds of outsider revolutions a) happen more often than they do and b) we are just the highly discriminating people to have discovered them. We are back to signaling, then. The narrative says something good about us.

Confirmation Bias. This is a bit like priming. After you read all those great subjective reviews, and especially if you liked the looks or the story, you are ready to hear the equipment. SURPRISE, it sounds awesome. Well....you were primed.

Loss Aversion and decision regret. I think this is more subtle, and I'm using the terms in a slightly different way from the literature. Even if you realize you made a mistake buying snake oil in the past, and its been proved to you via measurements and possibly a blind test, you bargain with those empirical results so your ego doesn't take/admit a loss. "Blind tests are bogus", you say "I can definitely hear a difference. "Not everything audible can be measured". Perhaps you let the vendor suck you into his quantum theory if you don't already know enough physics to know you are being conned/soothed. You keep coming back to the trough - to do otherwise would hurt. You might also call this the sunk cost fallacy.

Overconfidence, self-attribution bias, and herding are also clearly problems. It sounded great to you because of your skills in finding the right equipment synergies! You have golden ears, and more refined tastes than the masses! Michael Fremer raved about it in Stereophile and a bunch of people on Audioholics say it's great, so it must be. If you find yourself thinking these things (to paraphrase Jeff Buckley)...you may be irrational.

Two last things about market transactions: First, Asymmetrical Information. All markets involve information asymmetries, and when they are severe (such as medicine), market outcomes are heavily distorted. The fact is that the average equipment manufacturer knows way more about her equipment than you do. They have measurements they withheld. Only they know the actual results of their own blind testing, if they did any. They listen to equipment all day. They aren't telling you the pressure they are under to differentiate their product. It is extremely time-consuming to learn what you need to learn to make a perfectly rational purchase. In fact it is nearly impossible. You can't listen to everything. So you rely on heuristics, which usually encode some kind of bias. Information on audio is increasingly available and transparent, but there are still significant asymmetries, especially for us non-engineers. I just want good sound, I don't want to study acoustics (well, maybe a little).

Market Fragmentation increases the information asymmetry problem. We can only listen to a small sample of what's available. There are fewer and fewer audio stores, and the dealer can frame/anchor your decision within his slim coverage. You can order stuff on the internet and return it, but if you order some JBL Everests, you might have a little trouble returning them. High end speakers typically weigh 100 pounds or more. And the industry has bamboozled you with talk of "burn-in" to get you past the return period.

Finally, it is clear that audio buyers often value build quality and engineering, even when the effect on audibility is negligible or zero. A quick run through any audio mag will tell you we love quality knobs, interconnects and panels (back to 'phallic brutalism'). Audio magazines practically have centerfolds. It seems we love the appearance so much we desperately want those things to mean they sound better. We all know, in our mind of minds, that it usually ain't so.

So put this all together. Market equilibrium is where the downward-sloping demand (price=X, quantity=Y) curve meets the upward sloping supply curve for some bundle of transactional attributes (in reality this is always dynamically adjusting). We've shown that this bundle of attributes includes both real qualities and irrational preferences that are well beyond audible sonic quality. We've also shown that occasionally this equilibrium reflects only a very small subset of individuals, choice is artificially restricted, or information asymmetry distorts the equilibrium. In these cases, the result can't validly be generalized to a wider group. In fact, some might even argue that high end audio is a Giffen Good, an extreme case of signaling that defies equilibrium altogether. For these reasons, the market success, at equilibrium, of a given product cannot be used as an argument for, let alone proof of, audible sonic quality, or engineering quality.

By the way, knowledge of your biases can only take you so far. No discussion of this topic is complete without Sarah Lichtenstein's "Money Pump", in which she explains to people *how* she is ripping them off using another well-known bias, and they...just keep going for it. There's a delightful audio tape of her doing this, which I'll have to re-find, it's buried in the interwebs. (transcript here). Other examples of conscious irrationality or conscious cognitive/moral dissonance include the Stanford/Zimbardo Prison Experiment, the Yale/Milgram torture experiments and the Asch Conformity Experiments. Humans! (note: some of these experiments don't seem to replicate or literally can't be replicated today, adding further potential inconsistencies).

If you haven't already realized it, this post also constitutes a thorough argument for blind testing, as the only way to strip the sonic experience of its visual, status, confirmation bias, and other baggage. You will, however, be able to signal your objectivism if the cheap dongle happens to win. There's probably a bit of that in objective circles.
Thank you for the detailed post. I am looking forward to reading the links at the bottom you provided. They sound really interesting.
 

sfgumshoe

Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2023
Messages
10
Likes
5
I keep running into the same addlepated thought, here and in other forums. It goes something like this:



Even here at ASR, I've seen a few (just a few) posters go down the tubes trying to defend the idea. On Audiogon it's practically gospel from some of the most prolific posters. So let me just lay out here why it is nonsense, and I can link to it if it comes up again.

Let me state my claim explicitly (in after-posting edit): Market success proves neither a)better fidelity/accuracy, b) better sound quality, nor c) better engineering quality. It proves only that a product met the revealed preferences of some buyers, which may include, but are not limited to those three criteria. In real life, there are many criteria that complement, confuse, or even obscure these functional sound criteria. It is fine to use inaudible criteria, but sloppily confusing them with sound quality, or, worse, claiming market success *must correspond* to audible quality, only muddies the waters for those of us who prioritize fidelity and sound quality.

I am not anti-market, in fact I've been called a "market fundamentalist" by some. I make my living in financial markets. Markets allocate capital to societal preferences and capacity far better than top-down planning can. But look at the way I stated it: "preferences", "capacity", "better than top-down planning". Markets are not all-knowing, they are not moral judges, and they reflect preferences that can be self-destructive. Consider, for instance, lottery tickets, which face staggering demand for objectively minuscule expected value. There are a few bona fide instances of market failure, and even more market outcomes that are not, for example, healthy. If you want to be successful in financial markets, you need to understand cognitive bias, which we will discuss here momentarily. Actually, if these biases/behavioral irrationalities didn't exist, there would be no arbitrage profits in markets.

What do we mean by a market success? It means that people made enough purchases for the “successful” seller to survive. In audio we often don't know if they are making a decent profit, but let's assume, arguendo, that they are. So we say someone has achieved market success if they are making money selling a type of audio gear. That means that customers are, in a sense, voting for that gear, on a dollar-profit-weighted basis. Success can come from making an insanely profitable sale to one or two people, or it might come from a less profitable sale to a lot of people. Margin or volume, or both.

So there's the first flaw in the theory - a small number of high margin buyers can keep a company afloat. At the very high-priced end, If two dribbling morons give a vendor a 10,000% profit margin on five figure liquid metal cable and a custom burn-in device, the vendor may make a profit and declare himself a success. At the lower-cost end, where many tweaks reside, the lower the cost of the component or tweak, the less dollar volume it takes to “succeed”. Like these, for instance. There's hardly any fixed overhead or much marginal product cost associated with some tweaks, and the vendor can survive indefinitely with very few customers. One of the tweaks on that list involves only a phone call, thus it has almost zero marginal cost. These kinds of low-volume, low cost transactions are insufficient to generalize about customer preference and utility.

The next thing we have to discuss is 'value', or perhaps utility (in the economics sense):



Notice that utility in the examples comes from not just how strong the deadbolt is, or the (sound?) quality of the movie in some dimension, but from any aspect of customer satisfaction (of want). Preferences, or each buyer's definition of "value', reflect utility outside of strictly functional qualities. For the purposes of this discussion, we can use "value" and "utility" interchangeably. Proponents of the argument stated at the outset tend to use "value". The point here isn't the term, but the fact that value comprises multiple criteria (conscious and unconscious) that are not strictly audible sonic quality. They may also include not just engineering (non-audible) quality, at least the kind that we can measure.

I submit that high end buyers have all kinds of inaudible and non-engineering wants to satisfy. Even more important, we are only barely aware of some of them when we spend our money. Here are a few:

Signaling

Signaling is simply sending information without stating or explaining it. Signaling is ubiquitous in human interaction - we signal status, we signal our knowledge, we signal our job fitness or academic achievements and we signal our wealth.

Purchasing luxury, or very expensive, goods is a way to signal wealth and status. People do it with cars, watches, clothes, houses, art, and even philanthropy. That big wristwatch says you are wealthy enough to afford it. It certainly doesn't tell time better, nor is it necessarily more visible to your presbyopic eyes.

Do you think your college education -strictly what you *learned* in college - was worth the tuition? Would it be worth GWU's tuition of $57,500? Is GWU? One of the most fascinating books I've read recently suggests that college isn’t about learning at all. I went to Yale, but I don't think the *education* there is any better than a number of much cheaper colleges. I haven't found too many people who would argue that. So what are we paying for? Networking, signaling to employers, status, fancy facilities, access to recruiting, sports opporunities...the list goes on.

Robin Hanson, of GMU, writes a lot about signaling. One of the most pernicious signaling effects in this day and age is "inward apology". This is when you stick your neck out to believe something ridiculous in order to signal your loyalty to a movement or group:



I bet any of you can think of an example. Conspiracy theories are a big one. Think about one aspect of this: Inward apologetics must be costly to be effective signaling. Like blowing a lot of money on cable risers, perhaps? Or doubling down on internet forums about quantum stabilizers? If you were a dealer, might you engage in this behavior? If you had spent years building an objectively inferior system and becoming a big shot on Audiogon, would you do this? "Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made "

Revealed Preference

We can't discuss signaling without revealed preference. Know of anyone who flies a private jet but can't stop preaching about global warming? Do you think people virtue signal, while being hypocrites in their personal life? This is revealed preference - when your actions betray a different set of priorities than your words. Audiophiles try to conceal their revealed preference by inventing nonsense or non-descriptive sonic characteristics like Pace and Rhythm and Timing, as distinct from measurable rise times and frequency response. They say they care about "resolution" but buy an objectively concealing low S/N DAC.

Looks
Here the intersection with wristwatches and cars (also predominantly male hobbies) is strong. Look hard at the Primaluna amplifier below. The measurements are bad, and suggest unpredictable performance, particularly with variable loads. But that Italian design, oh my! Can you tell me that they, or any tube amp manufacturer, aren't selling the visual appeal of glowing tubes? A little tech-meets-modern, or steampunk.

I just asked my wife to describe this style, and the first words she said were "phallic brutalism". Well, it is a male-dominated hobby.

View attachment 36558

It isn't just that buyers want something that looks good, they want something that loudly signals their hobby and the status in the hobby they believe they have achieved. They want their equipment to scream "I have esoteric but refined tastes". Certainly there's also lots of evidence that staring at an impressive object like this will "prime" the viewer into appreciating the sound, the other parts of the experience.

Having mentioned "priming", we should consider some other behavioral finance effects. <--that link will take you to a nice summary with a top-ten list of known behavioral irrationalities. You can hover over each item on the list to see a short description. Many of these effects were identified in experiments with large numbers of market/competitive transactions, and have also been observed in real world transactions. Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky's nobel prize is based on Prospect Theory, which is a sort of synthesis of these effects. They are real and pernicious, and awareness does not necessarily make them go away.

The most relevant of these for High End Audio, I think, are as follows:

Narrative fallacy (I realize I have this one - well, I have all of them to some extent, but I think this one is strong with me) - we want to believe a good story. That lonely guy in his garage fiddling with MOSFETs has invented something that completely blows the big brands out of the water. Forget all that expensive Harmon research. Those wacky rebels at PS audio fiddled around with FPGAs and just totally solved all the alleged audible problems with digital audio, despite decades of well-funded research by specialists. And they keep doing it every six months - "night and day". We want to believe these kinds of outsider revolutions a) happen more often than they do and b) we are just the highly discriminating people to have discovered them. We are back to signaling, then. The narrative says something good about us.

Confirmation Bias. This is a bit like priming. After you read all those great subjective reviews, and especially if you liked the looks or the story, you are ready to hear the equipment. SURPRISE, it sounds awesome. Well....you were primed.

Loss Aversion and decision regret. I think this is more subtle, and I'm using the terms in a slightly different way from the literature. Even if you realize you made a mistake buying snake oil in the past, and its been proved to you via measurements and possibly a blind test, you bargain with those empirical results so your ego doesn't take/admit a loss. "Blind tests are bogus", you say "I can definitely hear a difference. "Not everything audible can be measured". Perhaps you let the vendor suck you into his quantum theory if you don't already know enough physics to know you are being conned/soothed. You keep coming back to the trough - to do otherwise would hurt. You might also call this the sunk cost fallacy.

Overconfidence, self-attribution bias, and herding are also clearly problems. It sounded great to you because of your skills in finding the right equipment synergies! You have golden ears, and more refined tastes than the masses! Michael Fremer raved about it in Stereophile and a bunch of people on Audioholics say it's great, so it must be. If you find yourself thinking these things (to paraphrase Jeff Buckley)...you may be irrational.

Two last things about market transactions: First, Asymmetrical Information. All markets involve information asymmetries, and when they are severe (such as medicine), market outcomes are heavily distorted. The fact is that the average equipment manufacturer knows way more about her equipment than you do. They have measurements they withheld. Only they know the actual results of their own blind testing, if they did any. They listen to equipment all day. They aren't telling you the pressure they are under to differentiate their product. It is extremely time-consuming to learn what you need to learn to make a perfectly rational purchase. In fact it is nearly impossible. You can't listen to everything. So you rely on heuristics, which usually encode some kind of bias. Information on audio is increasingly available and transparent, but there are still significant asymmetries, especially for us non-engineers. I just want good sound, I don't want to study acoustics (well, maybe a little).

Market Fragmentation increases the information asymmetry problem. We can only listen to a small sample of what's available. There are fewer and fewer audio stores, and the dealer can frame/anchor your decision within his slim coverage. You can order stuff on the internet and return it, but if you order some JBL Everests, you might have a little trouble returning them. High end speakers typically weigh 100 pounds or more. And the industry has bamboozled you with talk of "burn-in" to get you past the return period.

Finally, it is clear that audio buyers often value build quality and engineering, even when the effect on audibility is negligible or zero. A quick run through any audio mag will tell you we love quality knobs, interconnects and panels (back to 'phallic brutalism'). Audio magazines practically have centerfolds. It seems we love the appearance so much we desperately want those things to mean they sound better. We all know, in our mind of minds, that it usually ain't so.

So put this all together. Market equilibrium is where the downward-sloping demand (price=X, quantity=Y) curve meets the upward sloping supply curve for some bundle of transactional attributes (in reality this is always dynamically adjusting). We've shown that this bundle of attributes includes both real qualities and irrational preferences that are well beyond audible sonic quality. We've also shown that occasionally this equilibrium reflects only a very small subset of individuals, choice is artificially restricted, or information asymmetry distorts the equilibrium. In these cases, the result can't validly be generalized to a wider group. In fact, some might even argue that high end audio is a Giffen Good, an extreme case of signaling that defies equilibrium altogether. For these reasons, the market success, at equilibrium, of a given product cannot be used as an argument for, let alone proof of, audible sonic quality, or engineering quality.

By the way, knowledge of your biases can only take you so far. No discussion of this topic is complete without Sarah Lichtenstein's "Money Pump", in which she explains to people *how* she is ripping them off using another well-known bias, and they...just keep going for it. There's a delightful audio tape of her doing this, which I'll have to re-find, it's buried in the interwebs. (transcript here). Other examples of conscious irrationality or conscious cognitive/moral dissonance include the Stanford/Zimbardo Prison Experiment, the Yale/Milgram torture experiments and the Asch Conformity Experiments. Humans! (note: some of these experiments don't seem to replicate or literally can't be replicated today, adding further potential inconsistencies).

If you haven't already realized it, this post also constitutes a thorough argument for blind testing, as the only way to strip the sonic experience of its visual, status, confirmation bias, and other baggage. You will, however, be able to signal your objectivism if the cheap dongle happens to win. There's probably a bit of that in objective circles.
“ It is extremely time-consuming to learn what you need to learn to make a perfectly rational purchase. In fact it is nearly impossible. You can't listen to everything.”

It has been 50 years since I immersed myself as a teenager in the world of “hi-fi“. I have essentially ignored it since the mid 70s.

In the meantime, my skeptical instincts have been honed to a rather sharp edge.

I am now in a position to buy a first-rate audiophile grade stereo system — equipment that would’ve been beyond my wildest dreams five decades ago.

I am well aware that I am succumbing to many of the fallacies you describe in this wonderful post. For example: I’m going to buy an expensive McIntosh amplifier, probably the $9000 one (the 8950) or maybe even the $12,000 one (the 9500). (https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/integrated-amplifiers).

I’m sure that for a lot less money, I could get something that would sound just as good to my ears, but those mesmerizing blue meters sunk the hook deep into my limbic system way back during the Carter administration. And now I can afford one of those amps so by God I’m going to buy one.

I am also going to buy an EAT C-sharp turntable, (https://www.thespeakershacks.co.uk/2020/11/eat-c-sharp-turntable-review.html?m=1)

Why? Because I heard it at a friend’s place recently and it sounds fantastic, (along with about $75,000 worth of other equipment attached to it), and I think it’s pretty, and, unlike 50 years ago, now I can afford one.

And now we come to the reason for my post, and my heartfelt wish that you can advise me since you seem unusually sensible about all this. How on earth can I pick out speakers? I have narrowed the field to tower speakers in the range of $7000 to approximately $15,000.

I have listened to several: Sonus Fabers, Triangles, Revels, Audiovectors, et al.

See, e.g.,

https://www.revelspeakers.com/produ...color=Black-GLOBAL-Current&cgid=floorstanding,


At this point, I know that I could spend many hours auditioning the speakers. I’m also reasonably certain that I would think that they all sound fantastic, as indeed they have based on short term listening tests. Needless to say, there are dozens or scores of other brands that I could also listen to.

By the way, this is for a large living room that is 30’ x 15‘ with 12-foot ceilings and lots of heavy carpeting and drapes. And I listen to a wide variety of music from classical to rock ‘n’ roll to jazz to opera.

Can you advise me on how I might save myself a lot of time auditioning speakers? You might for example, advise me to simply pick ones that I like and not spend a lot of time shopping around since the differences would probably be inaudible to me.

Or, perhaps you can give me some solid technical advice, such as making sure that a given pair of speakers will match well with a 200 watt or 300-watt Mcintosh integrated amplifier.

Many thanks for your input. And anyone else who reads this post and cares to comment, I welcome your thoughts.
 

Sal1950

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Many thanks for your input. And anyone else who reads this post and cares to comment, I welcome your thoughts.
You didn't state a budget but,
A Fairly large room like that will do best with larger, higher efficiently speakers.
I'd recommend something like a pair of JBL Synthesis 4367 and a amp of 200-400 watts.
Also at least 2 larger powered subwoofers, maybe 4 even.
All combined with a good digital room correction system to integrate and smooth the response.
maxresdefault.jpg
 

sfgumshoe

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You didn't state a budget but,
A Fairly large room like that will do best with larger, higher efficiently speakers.
I'd recommend something like a pair of JBL Synthesis 4367 and a amp of 200-400 watts.
Also at least 2 larger powered subwoofers, maybe 4 even.
All combined with a good digital room correction system to integrate and smooth the response.
maxresdefault.jpg
Thanks — gorgeous setup you’ve got there but marital harmony re: decor dictates speakers like the ones mentioned (with links) in my post.
 

RayDunzl

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Thanks — gorgeous setup you’ve got there but marital harmony re: decor dictates speakers like the ones mentioned (with links) in my post.

"Honey, here's the 20 grand I saved buying these speakers instead of the pair we were thinking about earlier. Have fun!"

Doesn't work? Return them.
 

Sal1950

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Thanks — gorgeous setup you’ve got there but marital harmony re: decor dictates speakers like the ones mentioned (with links) in my post.
I thought you wanted a MANS speaker for yourself, not a tea set for the wife ? :facepalm:
They do come with grills if that would make it easier for you.
Otherwise just go with the Revels and a sub system like I already mentioned.
And the biggest Mc amps you can afford.
jb1-2.jpg
 

Earthbound

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Like the tone settings as well. As I’ve aged I’ve become more sensitive to the high end. Would be nice to turn it down a notch. Was interested in the 8950 as well.
 

Galliardist

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“ It is extremely time-consuming to learn what you need to learn to make a perfectly rational purchase. In fact it is nearly impossible. You can't listen to everything.”

It has been 50 years since I immersed myself as a teenager in the world of “hi-fi“. I have essentially ignored it since the mid 70s.

In the meantime, my skeptical instincts have been honed to a rather sharp edge.

I am now in a position to buy a first-rate audiophile grade stereo system — equipment that would’ve been beyond my wildest dreams five decades ago.

I am well aware that I am succumbing to many of the fallacies you describe in this wonderful post. For example: I’m going to buy an expensive McIntosh amplifier, probably the $9000 one (the 8950) or maybe even the $12,000 one (the 9500). (https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/integrated-amplifiers).

I’m sure that for a lot less money, I could get something that would sound just as good to my ears, but those mesmerizing blue meters sunk the hook deep into my limbic system way back during the Carter administration. And now I can afford one of those amps so by God I’m going to buy one.

I am also going to buy an EAT C-sharp turntable, (https://www.thespeakershacks.co.uk/2020/11/eat-c-sharp-turntable-review.html?m=1)

Why? Because I heard it at a friend’s place recently and it sounds fantastic, (along with about $75,000 worth of other equipment attached to it), and I think it’s pretty, and, unlike 50 years ago, now I can afford one.

And now we come to the reason for my post, and my heartfelt wish that you can advise me since you seem unusually sensible about all this. How on earth can I pick out speakers? I have narrowed the field to tower speakers in the range of $7000 to approximately $15,000.

I have listened to several: Sonus Fabers, Triangles, Revels, Audiovectors, et al.

See, e.g.,

https://www.revelspeakers.com/produ...color=Black-GLOBAL-Current&cgid=floorstanding,


At this point, I know that I could spend many hours auditioning the speakers. I’m also reasonably certain that I would think that they all sound fantastic, as indeed they have based on short term listening tests. Needless to say, there are dozens or scores of other brands that I could also listen to.

By the way, this is for a large living room that is 30’ x 15‘ with 12-foot ceilings and lots of heavy carpeting and drapes. And I listen to a wide variety of music from classical to rock ‘n’ roll to jazz to opera.

Can you advise me on how I might save myself a lot of time auditioning speakers? You might for example, advise me to simply pick ones that I like and not spend a lot of time shopping around since the differences would probably be inaudible to me.

Or, perhaps you can give me some solid technical advice, such as making sure that a given pair of speakers will match well with a 200 watt or 300-watt Mcintosh integrated amplifier.

Many thanks for your input. And anyone else who reads this post and cares to comment, I welcome your thoughts.
You don't have to get "the best", but do audition speakers first. Do include subs in your system. Don't tie yourself to a particular amp first, that gives you scope for failure. But don't obsess.

I'd draw up a list of models you can get to audition relatively easily as a starting point, because any speaker can be the world's best if you can't buy it. Differences between speakers are more likely to be audible than any other component. As you've already auditioned some, you should be starting to get an idea of what works best for you.
You have to choose the speaker to know the power requirement for the amplifier apart from anything else.

You don't have to buy an integrated to get nice blue meters either. You can buy a McIntosh pre or power amp and match with other components, as long as you make sure they are properly compatible. Since you're buying a turntable, the integrated may be the simplest route. But you should consider how to match any subs into the system, you may need additional EQ (it's seen as a requirement by most here for a reason, I've not EQ'd my main system and assure you it would bring improvement). So a McIntosh power amp and a more flexible preamp may give better results.

Of what you've heard, which do you prefer?
 

sfgumshoe

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You don't have to get "the best", but do audition speakers first. Do include subs in your system. Don't tie yourself to a particular amp first, that gives you scope for failure. But don't obsess.

I'd draw up a list of models you can get to audition relatively easily as a starting point, because any speaker can be the world's best if you can't buy it. Differences between speakers are more likely to be audible than any other component. As you've already auditioned some, you should be starting to get an idea of what works best for you.
You have to choose the speaker to know the power requirement for the amplifier apart from anything else.

You don't have to buy an integrated to get nice blue meters either. You can buy a McIntosh pre or power amp and match with other components, as long as you make sure they are properly compatible. Since you're buying a turntable, the integrated may be the simplest route. But you should consider how to match any subs into the system, you may need additional EQ (it's seen as a requirement by most here for a reason, I've not EQ'd my main system and assure you it would bring improvement). So a McIntosh power amp and a more flexible preamp may give better results.

Of what you've heard, which do you prefer?
They all sound fantastic
 

sfgumshoe

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You don't have to get "the best", but do audition speakers first. Do include subs in your system. Don't tie yourself to a particular amp first, that gives you scope for failure. But don't obsess.

I'd draw up a list of models you can get to audition relatively easily as a starting point, because any speaker can be the world's best if you can't buy it. Differences between speakers are more likely to be audible than any other component. As you've already auditioned some, you should be starting to get an idea of what works best for you.
You have to choose the speaker to know the power requirement for the amplifier apart from anything else.

You don't have to buy an integrated to get nice blue meters either. You can buy a McIntosh pre or power amp and match with other components, as long as you make sure they are properly compatible. Since you're buying a turntable, the integrated may be the simplest route. But you should consider how to match any subs into the system, you may need additional EQ (it's seen as a requirement by most here for a reason, I've not EQ'd my main system and assure you it would bring improvement). So a McIntosh power amp and a more flexible preamp may give better results.

Of what you've heard, which do you prefer?
They all sound great — that’s sort of the problem…
 

Galliardist

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They all sound great — that’s sort of the problem…
Well, we need to get you a bit of discernment or something. You need a system that gets you to play lots of music. One of the problems is that they can all sound great in the shop, but you end up with something that doesn't get you to play music when you get it home. Don't waste your money that way!

So, a couple of questions.
When you play music at the moment, what do you listen to and how much?
What are your favourite bands/types of music?
Indeed, are you listening to music at the moment?
Is this a "just because you can" thing?- because that isn't a good reason to buy lots of stereo equipment, to be honest.
 

Julf

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Don't tie yourself to a particular amp first, that gives you scope for failure.
Can you elaborate on that?

You don't have to buy an integrated to get nice blue meters either. You can buy a McIntosh pre or power amp and match with other components

Or you could just buy this: McIntosh MCLK12 for a mere $1,800.00. The reason I would never buy McIntosh gear. They have definitely jumped the shark and become an expensive lifestyle brand based on marketing.
 

antcollinet

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“ It is extremely time-consuming to learn what you need to learn to make a perfectly rational purchase. In fact it is nearly impossible. You can't listen to everything.”

It has been 50 years since I immersed myself as a teenager in the world of “hi-fi“. I have essentially ignored it since the mid 70s.

In the meantime, my skeptical instincts have been honed to a rather sharp edge.

I am now in a position to buy a first-rate audiophile grade stereo system — equipment that would’ve been beyond my wildest dreams five decades ago.

I am well aware that I am succumbing to many of the fallacies you describe in this wonderful post. For example: I’m going to buy an expensive McIntosh amplifier, probably the $9000 one (the 8950) or maybe even the $12,000 one (the 9500). (https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/integrated-amplifiers).

I’m sure that for a lot less money, I could get something that would sound just as good to my ears, but those mesmerizing blue meters sunk the hook deep into my limbic system way back during the Carter administration. And now I can afford one of those amps so by God I’m going to buy one.

I am also going to buy an EAT C-sharp turntable, (https://www.thespeakershacks.co.uk/2020/11/eat-c-sharp-turntable-review.html?m=1)

Why? Because I heard it at a friend’s place recently and it sounds fantastic, (along with about $75,000 worth of other equipment attached to it), and I think it’s pretty, and, unlike 50 years ago, now I can afford one.

And now we come to the reason for my post, and my heartfelt wish that you can advise me since you seem unusually sensible about all this. How on earth can I pick out speakers? I have narrowed the field to tower speakers in the range of $7000 to approximately $15,000.

I have listened to several: Sonus Fabers, Triangles, Revels, Audiovectors, et al.

See, e.g.,

https://www.revelspeakers.com/produ...color=Black-GLOBAL-Current&cgid=floorstanding,


At this point, I know that I could spend many hours auditioning the speakers. I’m also reasonably certain that I would think that they all sound fantastic, as indeed they have based on short term listening tests. Needless to say, there are dozens or scores of other brands that I could also listen to.

By the way, this is for a large living room that is 30’ x 15‘ with 12-foot ceilings and lots of heavy carpeting and drapes. And I listen to a wide variety of music from classical to rock ‘n’ roll to jazz to opera.

Can you advise me on how I might save myself a lot of time auditioning speakers? You might for example, advise me to simply pick ones that I like and not spend a lot of time shopping around since the differences would probably be inaudible to me.

Or, perhaps you can give me some solid technical advice, such as making sure that a given pair of speakers will match well with a 200 watt or 300-watt Mcintosh integrated amplifier.

Many thanks for your input. And anyone else who reads this post and cares to comment, I welcome your thoughts.
The post you replied to is about 3 years old - so not sure you're going to get an answer from the OP. The advice below is intended to match your approach, NOT be the most practical. (If I was being practical, I'd tell you to ditch the Mac, turntable and speakers and just buy top end Genelecs)

As far as I can see, your purchase motiviation is aesthetics and romanticism. (Buying because you wanted it years ago, or because you heard it at a friends, and it is pretty). There is nothing wrong with this if you can afford it and are going in with your eyes wide open (you seem to be since you acknowledge you could get equivalent sound much cheaper).

So for your speakers you can use the same approach. Your budget is enough to get stunning sound. So buy the most aesthetically pleasing ones you can find at the lower end of your budget range which have reasonable sensitivity (87dB+) and sufficient power handling for your amp (300W). Now the important part - you are spending a lot of money, so you should be able to find a dealer who will help you audition the speakers IN YOUR ROOM. Do they still sound fantastic? Also after an extended listening session? Then you're good to go.

Oh - and one bit of practical advice. Treat your room if you can, and get some sort of room equalisation device to put between source and amp. (EG Mini DSP Flex).
 
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Killingbeans

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Oh - and one bit of practical advice. Treat your room if you can, and get some sort of room equalisation device to put between source and amp. (EG Mini DSP Flex).

+1

Great speakers in a crappy room is like eating candy with the wrapper on.
 

Galliardist

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Can you elaborate on that?
Yes. The speaker will have requirements to drive it - some speakers are relatively easy to drive, others are less sensitive, or have impedance/phase issues and such that require an amp with more power or can drive the lower impedance. Thankfully McIntosh amps seem to be good on this front as measured.

Also, as I understand it from other forums (so hearsay evidence at best) some speakers have problems with the McIntosh autoformers. In some cases dealers have also apparently attached some speakers to the wrong tap in demonstrations, for whatever reason. I'd want to take such things into account. I'd want to use an experienced McIntosh dealer. My experience of McIntosh has been universally bad, but not I'd suggest because of the amps, so much as the dealers I heard them at were new to them.

It can also be a budget mistake. If you can't afford the particular amp with your preferred speaker in budget, then it makes more sense to choose a lower priced amplifier that can drive the preferred speaker.
The post you replied to is about 3 years old - so not sure you're going to get an answer from the OP. The advice below is intended to match your approach, NOT be the most practical. (If I was being practical, I'd tell you to ditch the Mac, turntable and speakers and just buy top end Genelecs)

As far as I can see, your purchase motiviation is aesthetics and romanticism. (Buying because you wanted it years ago, or because you heard it at a friends, and it is pretty). There is nothing wrong with this if you can afford it and are going in with your eyes wide open (you seem to be since you acknowledge you could get equivalent sound much cheaper).

So for your speakers you can use the same approach. Your budget is enough to get stunning sound. So buy the most aesthetically pleasing ones you can find at the lower end of your budget range which have reasonable sensitivity (87dB+) and sufficient power handling for your amp (300W). Now the important part - you are spending a lot of money, so you should be able to find a dealer who will help you audition the speakers IN YOUR ROOM. Do they still sound fantastic? Also after an extended listening session? Then you're good to go.

Oh - and one bit of practical advice. Treat your room if you can, and get some sort of room equalisation device to put between source and amp. (EG Mini DSP Flex).
All good advice.
 

Julf

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Yes. The speaker will have requirements to drive it - some speakers are relatively easy to drive, others are less sensitive, or have impedance/phase issues and such that require an amp with more power or can drive the lower impedance. Thankfully McIntosh amps seem to be good on this front as measured.

Also, as I understand it from other forums (so hearsay evidence at best) some speakers have problems with the McIntosh autoformers. In some cases dealers have also apparently attached some speakers to the wrong tap in demonstrations, for whatever reason. I'd want to take such things into account. I'd want to use an experienced McIntosh dealer. My experience of McIntosh has been universally bad, but not I'd suggest because of the amps, so much as the dealers I heard them at were new to them.

It can also be a budget mistake. If you can't afford the particular amp with your preferred speaker in budget, then it makes more sense to choose a lower priced amplifier that can drive the preferred speaker.
Agree with all of that - but my advice would be slightly different. I advice to get a transparent and accurate amp of sufficient power and that doesn't have problems driving "difficult" loads (there are many affordable ones that satisfy those criteria), so that you are free to choose and change speakers without worry.
 

Galliardist

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Agree with all of that - but my advice would be slightly different. I advice to get a transparent and accurate amp of sufficient power and that doesn't have problems driving "difficult" loads (there are many affordable ones that satisfy those criteria), so that you are free to choose and change speakers without worry.
When starting out though as here, the order for me is source quality (with digital that's pretty trivial - though getting an interface you like is also quite important), then the speaker/room interface (where most of the money goes, but bearing the amp in mind).

Here, we have someone in @sfgumshoe who wants a McIntosh and a particular turntable. So if the chosen speakers only require a 100w per channel amp, and two or three subs, we can save some money by dropping a level in the McIntosh range and still get the blue meters: if a speaker requiring more power is chosen a bigger amp is needed. We aren't going to get a really "bad" amp here, and the speakers probably aren't going to change very soon.

I think flexibility is a good thing when starting out - so is a good retailer if one is available.
 

sfgumshoe

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Well, we need to get you a bit of discernment or something. You need a system that gets you to play lots of music. One of the problems is that they can all sound great in the shop, but you end up with something that doesn't get you to play music when you get it home. Don't waste your money that way!

So, a couple of questions.
When you play music at the moment, what do you listen to and how much?
What are your favourite bands/types of music?
Indeed, are you listening to music at the moment?
Is this a "just because you can" thing?- because that isn't a good reason to buy lots of stereo equipment, to be honest.
“I / we listen to a wide variety of music from classical to rock ‘n’ roll to jazz to opera.”
 
OP
ahofer

ahofer

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They all sound great — that’s sort of the problem…
I had the same problem. Lots of speakers sounded great. Several also passed my long-term listening test without fatigue. If you can’t audition them in your listening room, go with the one you like that has the best measurements, uniform dispersion in particular - I’d suggest the Revels. It’s most likely they will sound good in a variety of environments, and they can be EQ’d to taste. I have a pair of 228Be and they are fantastic. You’ve got more than enough power for a large room.

See how you like that, and if you still feel like you need the bottom octaves evened out, get a few subs and DSP.
 

Galliardist

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“I / we listen to a wide variety of music from classical to rock ‘n’ roll to jazz to opera.”
I'm tempted to say "that's not a wide variety of music".
So do you have a basic stereo setup you listen on? Do you listen intently a lot, or more as background? Do you like what you have now?

Opera's good for starters. If you have a good recording of an opera in a language you understand, that makes a good target. You should be able to listen to a couple of acts in one sitting with the speakers - for me it's important that you can make out at least most of what is being sung and spoken and where singers are placed on the soundstage. That's a harder test than with most pop vocals, for example. In an overture, you should be able to tell something of the layout of the orchestra, follow the different parts, and have a distinct feeling of piano and forte, rather than it just being "a bit louder". Things should be ordered, rather than a syrupy mess. If all of those things are in place, and if instruments don't sound wrong, you at least have a candidate.

Beware the bright, superficially impressive speaker. They are the worst. Listening for an hour in one go usually shows up if something is too far in that direction for you, especially if you concentrate on following details.

I switched from listening to lots of extracts to longer pieces when evaluating speakers and found that it helped me to work them out. It annoys some salespeople, but at the amount you're spending it shouldn't. The key thing isn't just that you can listen for a long time though. They should properly hold your attention for that time.

Then, what @tonycollinet said from those that seem to work. They have to sound great in your room. And don't think the more expensive one is going to be better!
 
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