How can bogus claims and inferior audio thrive in a competitive market?

[BDWoody]

I've heard that an amazing set can even cost tens of thousands... though how much of the original art remains after post-production is again a matter of subjective taste.

Yes, there is such a thing as too much rhythm and slam...to me...but to each his or her own.
A well put together melon rack is definitely worth pursuing...and holding onto...

 

[watchnerd]

"Pointing out facts and correcting misinformation gets boring, so let's just go with the flow".

No that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that some of the current *methods* of pointing out facts and correcting misinformation (e.g. online forum debates about how silly 'the other guys' are) are mostly preaching to the choir and don't seem to be converting anyone.

It's cliche, but:

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

 

[Julf]

I'm saying that some of the current *methods* of pointing out facts and correcting misinformation (e.g. online forum debates about how silly 'the other guys' are) are mostly preaching to the choir and don't seem to be converting anyone.

What methods do you think would work best?

It's cliche, but:

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

That cliche would apply if we expected different results. Instead many of have observed how repeated fact- and evidence-based arguments, coming from as many people as possible, do actually make a difference. That is why we keep doing it.

 

[scott wurcer]

(e.g. online forum debates about how silly 'the other guys' are)

True, the shouting matches and calling people silly or stupid are not productive. In most cases it is possible to state in terms that almost anyone can understand how these beliefs violate the most very basic principles. For instance, information theory uses the same basic concept of entropy as thermodynamics and some claims are simply the equivalent of energy from nothing or reversal of entropy.

 

[GrimSurfer]

In most cases it is possible to state in terms that almost anyone can understand how these beliefs violate the most very basic principles.

It doesn't matter to some people. They find it easy to reject science because they don't understand it and have no desire to learn anything about it.

 

[ahofer]

No that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that some of the current *methods* of pointing out facts and correcting misinformation (e.g. online forum debates about how silly 'the other guys' are) are mostly preaching to the choir and don't seem to be converting anyone.

It's cliche, but:

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

I'm trying to do this a little differently. I've found as a manager (of some older, more experienced people at times) that people don't change their minds in the course of an interaction like this. If you marshal a lot of evidence, however, they sometimes go back, think about it and...evolve on their own. This argument will always remain, but the names and faces change, and sometimes switch sides. I used to buy a lot of subjective arguments myself. The 1987 Stereo Review article blind-testing amplifiers was probably my first push in this direction. I resisted at first, but then when I returned to the audio market a few years ago (I happily listened to the same system for many years) I found an overwhelming preponderance of similar evidence, and almost none to the contrary. Thank you internet!

 

[Hypnotoad]

Just saw a power cable advertised with not just regular gold plating but 24ct gold plating for the ultimate in signal transfer. It's a power cable what signal does it transfer? And does this mean my power outlets must have 24ct gold plating as well? The sad thing is that educated people buy this stuff.

 

[BillW]

Just saw this on Vox about the weird science of Placebo effect. I did a thought experiment on replacing the words drug/pain/medicine with "audio" in the article. Makes for entertaining reading. The really interesting weirdness of the Placebo effect was near the end of the article. When BOTH doctors and patients KNEW the drug was a sugar pill it still had a beneficial effect.

 

[digicidal]

Just saw this on Vox about the weird science of Placebo effect. I did a thought experiment on replacing the words drug/pain/medicine with "audio" in the article. Makes for entertaining reading. The really interesting weirdness of the Placebo effect was near the end of the article. When BOTH doctors and patients KNEW the drug was a sugar pill it still had a beneficial effect.

Because "mind over matter" is an actual thing as long as the matter is your body's cells and systems (as opposed to telekinesis). You see the same thing in terminal cases where against all medical science, they are able to hold on well past their "expiration date" in order to see that relative they wanted to see or make it to their birthday, holiday, etc. Strangely it even happens in non-responsive patients sometimes. My grandmother was vegetative and everyone gathered for the end... but when they took her off life-support... she woke up! After asking for a cousin (who wasn't there) - she lived for another week on her own (eating and visiting with everyone), while the cousin made arrangements to come see her. She died soon after the visit - within an hour or so - but peacefully in her sleep.

I think even on a subconscious level, most people believe doing something (even if it's known to be placebo) is significantly better than nothing at all.

 

[solderdude]

How can bogus claims and inferior audio thrive in a competitive market?

Because people want to believe and brains are very accommodating.

 

[BillW]

Because people want to believe and brains are very accommodating.

Yes it definitely seems that way.
I hadn't given much thought to what the manufacturers of either inferior or just outright woo products thought themselves. The idea that they themselves are delusional rather than just dishonest is intriguing to me. Could woo peddlers also be believing their own brochure? And not being simple grifters but rather genuine in their erroneous beliefs about the quality of their products (like PS Audio) and/or not defying the laws of physics (like cable hustlers). Hmmm need to think on that a bit more.

 

[BDWoody]

I hadn't given much thought to what the manufacturers of either inferior or just outright woo products thought themselves. The idea that they themselves are delusional rather than just dishonest is intriguing to me. Could woo peddlers also be believing their own brochure? And not being simple grifters but rather genuine in their erroneous beliefs about the quality of their products (like PS Audio) and/or not defying the laws of physics (like cable hustlers). Hmmm need to think on that a bit more.

I think people who falsely claim special knowledge or abilities can be considered Charlatans. That does not mean they don't buy into their own specialness, many of them certainly seem to.
They are so special, the laws of physics simply don't apply to them...and depending on their level of charisma they may be able to convince others of this specialness.

It just turns into an ever growing circle jerk...

 

[digicidal]

I think people who falsely claim special knowledge or abilities can be considered Charlatans. That does not mean they don't buy into their own specialness, many of them certainly seem to.
They are so special, the laws of physics simply don't apply to them...and depending on their level of charisma they may be able to convince others of this specialness.

It just turns into an ever growing circle jerk...

I agree with you, but then again... I don't own a huge resort in Fiji... so what do I really know?

 

[Hypnotoad]

Nonsense such as this:

"Superconductor 3 have a unique ability to bring out the life essence of musicality, these highly refined high-end cable designs bring an amazing level of audible resolution with a wealth of musical information.

JPS Alumiloy conductors in a noise rejecting precision quad lay topology designed to reject low to high frequency noise and the very difficult to reject magnetic noise. Unique use of medical grade kapton dielectrics applied to JPS’s stringent specifications minimize audible interaction with our optimized custom Alumiloy conductors. Superconductor 3 maintains proper timbre and timing across the entire frequency spectrum, keeping true to deep dynamic bass, clean yet full midrange and vocals, and clear highs, without noise, edge, or brightness. Sound flows through these cables coherently and effortlessly, Superconductor 3 reveals a tremendous amount of subtle detail throughout the audible range.

This dramatic improvement in full spectrum resolution makes recorded music more listenable as the system itself simply amplifies the source material rather than shifting tonality in unpredictable ways, with custom shield topology rejecting all forms of noise, hum, and hiss from external and inherent sources to the highest degree of any audio cable design on the planet (bettered only by JPS Aluminata Series). "

 

[BillW]

Nonsense such as this:

"Superconductor 3 have a unique ability to bring out the life essence of musicality, these highly refined high-end cable designs bring an amazing level of audible resolution with a wealth of musical information.

JPS Alumiloy conductors in a noise rejecting precision quad lay topology designed to reject low to high frequency noise and the very difficult to reject magnetic noise. Unique use of medical grade kapton dielectrics applied to JPS’s stringent specifications minimize audible interaction with our optimized custom Alumiloy conductors. Superconductor 3 maintains proper timbre and timing across the entire frequency spectrum, keeping true to deep dynamic bass, clean yet full midrange and vocals, and clear highs, without noise, edge, or brightness. Sound flows through these cables coherently and effortlessly, Superconductor 3 reveals a tremendous amount of subtle detail throughout the audible range.

This dramatic improvement in full spectrum resolution makes recorded music more listenable as the system itself simply amplifies the source material rather than shifting tonality in unpredictable ways, with custom shield topology rejecting all forms of noise, hum, and hiss from external and inherent sources to the highest degree of any audio cable design on the planet (bettered only by JPS Aluminata Series). "

Wow! That is some awesome pseudo-science Bafflegab This kind of creative writing always reminds me of the Turbo Encabulator .

 

[Hypnotoad]

Wow! That is some awesome pseudo-science Bafflegab

Really makes you wonder if their laughing their heads off when they write that stuff?

 

[Hypnotoad]

 

[anmpr1]

Not sure where to post this comment--possibly as a 'bogus claim'? Genelec has come out with 'environmentally friendly' loudspeakers. I've never thought about whether my loudspeakers were 'environmentally friendly'. Has anyone thought about that? Ever?

My question is whether the company really thinks their 'raw' speakers are "kinder to the planet" (their words), or if it's just cynical marketing? My first impression would be the latter, pure cynicism, but who knows, maybe they really believe it?

Back in the day one could buy expensive speakers in unfinished cabinets. AR, JBL studio monitors, Klipsch and others. The idea was to save the consumer money by not offering furniture--just value. Had nothing to do with saving the planet. Genelec seems to be doing the same thing, but wrapping it in 'social conscious'. Or some would call virtue signalling. On the other hand I didn't see a price, so I cant even say these are 'cheaper' (nothing from Genelec is cheap, or inexpensive) than their regular line. Maybe they are charging more for them.

https://www.genelec.com/RAW

 

[Hephaestus]

Not sure where to post this comment--possibly as a 'bogus claim'? Genelec has come out with 'environmentally friendly' loudspeakers. I've never thought about whether my loudspeakers were 'environmentally friendly'. Has anyone thought about that? Ever?

My question is whether the company really thinks their 'raw' speakers are "kinder to the planet" (their words), or if it's just cynical marketing? My first impression would be the latter, pure cynicism, but who knows, maybe they really believe it?

Back in the day one could buy expensive speakers in unfinished cabinets. AR, JBL studio monitors, Klipsch and others. The idea was to save the consumer money by not offering furniture--just value. Had nothing to do with saving the planet. Genelec seems to be doing the same thing, but wrapping it in 'social conscious'. Or some would call virtue signalling. On the other hand I didn't see a price, so I cant even say these are 'cheaper' (nothing from Genelec is cheap, or inexpensive) than their regular line. Maybe they are charging more for them.

https://www.genelec.com/RAW

Good question. We are going to see similar moves more in the future, I think. There is definitely demand for these.

 

[Robin L]

Not sure where to post this comment--possibly as a 'bogus claim'? Genelec has come out with 'environmentally friendly' loudspeakers. I've never thought about whether my loudspeakers were 'environmentally friendly'. Has anyone thought about that? Ever?

My question is whether the company really thinks their 'raw' speakers are "kinder to the planet" (their words), or if it's just cynical marketing? My first impression would be the latter, pure cynicism, but who knows, maybe they really believe it?

Back in the day one could buy expensive speakers in unfinished cabinets. AR, JBL studio monitors, Klipsch and others. The idea was to save the consumer money by not offering furniture--just value. Had nothing to do with saving the planet. Genelec seems to be doing the same thing, but wrapping it in 'social conscious'. Or some would call virtue signalling. On the other hand I didn't see a price, so I cant even say these are 'cheaper' (nothing from Genelec is cheap, or inexpensive) than their regular line. Maybe they are charging more for them.

https://www.genelec.com/RAW

I really don't know about Genelec. Basically, all I've read is propaganda produced by advertising departments, repeated by folks claiming to be reviewers, but then working off the copy handed to them from the company's usual sources.

This did make me think: Socially responsible audiophiles?

D' Addario, the folk that make the guitar strings I've been using as of late, are now making face masks [face shields is more like it, really necessary for health workers with covid-19 patients] from the materials that otherwise would be transparent drum heads:

https://www.musicradar.com/news/dad...-g2-drumheads-to-protect-against-corona-virus

One other thought: audio gear that uses less electricity, lo-power class d amps, personal portable audio, IEMs, high efficiency loudspeakers.

The world is shifting underneath our feet at a rapid pace.