Is the entire audio industry a fraud?

[OldHvyMec]

What about people who listen primarily (or only) with headphones?

Honestly I didn't even consider it. I wear ear plugs and muffs all the time. I have concussive hearing that has settled quite a bit from a child. BUT
old habits are hard to break. As long as you're happy with what you have, that is the only thing that counts.

Regards

 

[Mart68]

When I was working at Atlantis Sound

Was it destroyed in a single night of earthquakes and floods?

 

[gfinlays]

They make martinis with pickles in them? Lol. It actually might have some tangy taste but it would be veering far off from a traditional martini. I find those pickled onions and various types of olives work well in martinis.

I'm very partial to a dirty martini with pickled chillies and olives and a splash of the chilli pickling liquid as well as a splash of olive brine!

 

[Galliardist]

Totally obsolete notion.

I seem to have hit a few nerves with my comment.

In terms of pure sonics, the statement makes little sense these days. Even at the time I learnt the mantra (not that I obeyed it in the strict manner set out in the UK mags and by the Linn dealers of the time) it was on the way out, and the combination of cheap CD and the response from those who stayed in entry level turntable manufacturing in the lean period did it in completely. The last vestiges are still there for this, the few really bad digital front ends tested here are still to be avoided in my opinion (and I was painfully aware in the first years of the vinyl renaissance that far too many new entrants didn't have a clue about turntable setup or what's important, though the starters I know learnt quickly). The source still determines the information that the system presents, you can't get it back: but choosing a good sounding digital front end is, well, trivial.

Having said that, the source is also still important in other ways. It's the only place where you interact (I hope!) on a daily basis with the system and the music, once the system is set up. (Of course a lot of you are hobbyists and tinkerers - I dislike that part of the business though, one decent system is quite enough for years of listening for me). For some this is the ritual of LP cleaning and playing: for me it's about easily finding a choice of music: but it has to be right in that way as well. If the front end puts you off you'll listen less - and you may blame "the sound".

I know of someone who fussed around with tubes and vinyl for years, and was always looking for different speakers and blaming them for everything. Last year he set up a second digital system of the "Hey Alexa" type just for background listening when he got home from work, as it were: I don't think the main system even got turned on after that. We have plenty in the "why does vinyl sound so much better than digital?" thread for whom the opposite has been the case.

I don't believe, at the end of the day, in the absolute quest for the "best sound". I believe if you play music and are moved, entertained, informed or whatever by it, on you system, day in and day out, that's the real point.

 

[Galliardist]

They mostly used vinegar and lemon here.

Reminds me of the Belgian friits wiyth mayo, as the difference between that and freedom fries.
That is almost Humour how congress could pass the freedom fries before discussing the war.

Proper fish and chips comes with thick battered fish, a dangerous amount of salt and "non brewed condiment" which is artificial vinegar.

I've yet to find anywhere in this part of the world that gets it right, and tend to prefer crumbed or grilled fish from Sydney establishments. Lemon as served here works well with that.

There's also an abomination known as "chicken salt" which seems to be nothing more than stock powder. I've got used to almost everything else Australia has thrown at me, but not that.

 

[OldHvyMec]

That's not quite what I meant. In your previous post, you said, ".... It is never the medium that presents the music. It's always the way you set up to play the medium you select...." With speakers in a room, there is a great deal of leeway. With headphones, there is not. Headphones have a soundfield that is very restrictive. The "medium" dominates your perceptions, especially with over-ear 'phones that isolate well. You have no choice about "the way you set up to play the medium."

So in the case of headphones, is it not always the medium that presents the music????

Jim

Without knowing anything about your situation, I will say, headphones have a place. I am not a headphone guy. BUT an open planar type headphone
is just as prone to ambient noise as low listening levels are. The fact is all EQ or changes are still in that space between the transducer and your ears.
You just enclosed the room to a few inches vs several feet. I appreciate your input, but there are "in the chair" things that can change you HP experience.

Just like you the quality of the HP and the gear you use is the key. BTW when was your last hearing test? Mine was last month and I'm loosing about 1-2%
per year at this point. I can still hear the tones but a +1-2% increase in gain is required. I don't use aides at this time.
I'll quit the audio journey when I can't hear my Victrola or I'm not strong enough to wind it up. Which ever comes first. "Happy Trails"

 

[jools]

Proper fish and chips comes with thick battered fish, a dangerous amount of salt and "non brewed condiment" which is artificial vinegar.

I've yet to find anywhere in this part of the world that gets it right, and tend to prefer crumbed or grilled fish from Sydney establishments. Lemon as served here works well with that.

There's also an abomination known as "chicken salt" which seems to be nothing more than stock powder. I've got used to almost everything else Australia has thrown at me, but not that.

Now you're talking... and in addition to the dangerous salt and non-brewed chemical, I'll have a pickled egg with mine.

 

[ahofer]

Was it destroyed in a single night of earthquakes and floods?

It was destroyed in a single day when my prior (abusive and immature) boss backed up a truck to the store and stole most of the inventory, so similar.

 

[atmasphere]

It is extremely useful software; Paul does remarkable work. I can choose any harmonic profile I like. I can also add the same level of hum as in the actual power amp.

Again, I've done pretty extensive measurements on the 555 and have harmonic spectra at piles of different fundamental frequencies, levels, and different loads. So pick one, feel free to use a worst case. Your contention is that the harmonic structure at better than 0.02% THD+N in the top octaves and 0.01% THD+N is audible as "bright" and "harsh." Not only can I not hear this, in test after test of amplifiers, no one else has, either (e.g., the Richard Clark challenge and many others).

And you need to choose the source material as well. I don't want that as an excuse in the event that you are unable to distinguish the distorted and undistorted files ears-only.

Why do you talk about 'pick one'? Can you not have the entire spectra of the amp imposed from 20 to 20KHz and with the amp running at power? And you didn't answer- will this be with the amp's actual performance on a standard test load? The one Stereophile uses will work fine.

Its obvious you don't trust me; I'm having a problem trusting that one file will actually be different from the other. How do we resolve that? FWIW I do know one cut for starters: 'Sweet Jane' by the Cowboy Junkies. I expect that all the cuts will be at the same resolution level. WAV files?

 

[ahofer]

How do we resolve that?

Can't that be done by measuring the files? Or is there something I'm missing?

 

[dshreter]

It is extremely useful software; Paul does remarkable work. I can choose any harmonic profile I like. I can also add the same level of hum as in the actual power amp.

Again, I've done pretty extensive measurements on the 555 and have harmonic spectra at piles of different fundamental frequencies, levels, and different loads. So pick one, feel free to use a worst case. Your contention is that the harmonic structure at better than 0.02% THD+N in the top octaves and 0.01% THD+N is audible as "bright" and "harsh." Not only can I not hear this, in test after test of amplifiers, no one else has, either (e.g., the Richard Clark challenge and many others).

And you need to choose the source material as well. I don't want that as an excuse in the event that you are unable to distinguish the distorted and undistorted files ears-only.

Why do you talk about 'pick one'? Can you not have the entire spectra of the amp imposed from 20 to 20KHz and with the amp running at power? And you didn't answer- will this be with the amp's actual performance on a standard test load? The one Stereophile uses will work fine.

Its obvious you don't trust me; I'm having a problem trusting that one file will actually be different from the other. How do we resolve that? FWIW I do know one cut for starters: 'Sweet Jane' by the Cowboy Junkies. I expect that all the cuts will be at the same resolution level. WAV files?

As an observer of this exchange, it seems clear this could proceed much more quickly if atmasphere defined the test parameters and SIY agreed or disagreed to them rather than the other way around.

If you have a perspective on the desired equipment and test methodology, can you just specify it? That would shortcut things and I'm really interested to see this take place!

 

[MarkS]

A comparison of artificially doctored and undoctored signals is not equivalent to a comparison of actual amps. The doctoring is far too simplistic for this to be valid.

FWIW, I'm in the "all amps sound the same" camp, and have been for decades, because human hearing is just not very good at detecting the miniscule flaws in the vast majority solid-state amps.

But I still don't think a doctored-signal test is a valid substitute for comparing actual amps.

 

[SIY]

Its obvious you don't trust me; I'm having a problem trusting that one file will actually be different from the other. How do we resolve that? FWIW I do know one cut for starters: 'Sweet Jane' by the Cowboy Junkies. I expect that all the cuts will be at the same resolution level. WAV files?

It's not distrust, it's skepticism. You can do whatever file analysis you like to confirm that they're different and that the difference is the added harmonic content.

 

[SIY]

A comparison of artificially doctored and undoctored signals is not equivalent to a comparison of actual amps. The doctoring is far too simplistic for this to be valid.

If one does the "worst case" addition, then if anything, the test could be subject to false positives. That's OK, we can at least work with that. Let's make it as easy as possible for Ralph.

The issue that is my sticking point is that humans are just not very sensitive to low levels of distortion, and the amp that he picked as his example of "bright" and "harsh" has pretty low distortion. The hand waves he's doing are related to distortion levels 80dB/10,000x higher so are totally irrelevant to his claims.

 

[MarkS]

If one does the "worst case" addition, then if anything, the test could be subject to false positives. That's OK, we can at least work with that. Let's make it as easy as possible for Ralph.

If Ralph wants to test his ability to hear artificial constant distortion, then this is a valid test. If Ralph wants to test his ability to hear whether two amps can be distinguished, it is not valid.

For example, time dependence may make distortion more audible, even if the maximum amount is same as a constant distortion. Think of a test tone steadily rising in level that suddently clips softly; that sudden onset might be heard, whereas the same constant relative level harmonics might not; because they are always there, we don't notice them as easily.

Now I personally am firmly convinced that neither Ralph nor you nor I nor anyone can hear the difference between an Adcom and any other properly functioning solid-state amp.

But I still don't think artificially adding steady-state distortion is a valid test of that.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Now I personally am firmly convinced that neither Ralph nor you nor I nor anyone can hear the difference between an Adcom and any other properly functioning solid-state amp.

That IS THE QUESTION, now isn't it?

 

[MarkS]

Yes, it is the question. I encourage you to do your own blind listening (as I have done).

A protocol that is less sensitive, but does not require level matching: start with the volume at zero before each listening session, and turn it up by ear only (do not look at any visual volume indicator, and do not use a volume setter that gives tactile feedback).

 

[Mnyb]

If one does the "worst case" addition, then if anything, the test could be subject to false positives. That's OK, we can at least work with that. Let's make it as easy as possible for Ralph.

The issue that is my sticking point is that humans are just not very sensitive to low levels of distortion, and the amp that he picked as his example of "bright" and "harsh" has pretty low distortion. The hand waves he's doing are related to distortion levels 80dB/10,000x higher so are totally irrelevant to his claims.

I think your test proposal is very valid Thanks for doing this at all btw ,anyway if your simulated test case is worse than an actual product and no one can pick out your simulation from the original signal . Amps that perform better than this can’t be distinguished either.

You will always face “god of the gaps” arguments that’s it really not exactly the same.

 

[SIY]

For example, time dependence may make distortion more audible, even if the maximum amount is same as a constant distortion. Think of a test tone steadily rising in level that suddently clips softly; that sudden onset might be heard, whereas the same constant relative level harmonics might not; because they are always there, we don't notice them as easily.

I'd like to see a cite or evidence for that.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Yes, it is the question. I encourage you to do your own blind listening (as I have done).

A protocol that is less sensitive, but does not require level matching: start with the volume at zero before each listening session, and turn it up by ear only (do not look at any visual volume indicator, and do not use a volume setter that gives tactile feedback).

I have done exactly that and did hear differences, but I was not trying to prove or disprove the theory that humans can not distinguish between two properly working amps. I was trying to decide which pair of mono block amps I wanted to keep. At that time I believed that I heard a consistent and repeatable difference between pair A and pair B.

I do want to revisit this with a much more controlled protocol. With luck I will manage to perform such an experiment before my hearing or interest in audio reproduction fails.