Is the entire audio industry a fraud?

[Mr. Widget]

Some 40 years back, in the UK we had that source first philosophy and I’m quite happy to defend it as it was then. Small speakers can still show differences between badly and well engineered turntables or cassette decks.

And yes, source first is still absolutely, definitely, 100%, totally right. The only thing that’s changed is the relative cost of a near-to-perfect source.

I heard this notion for the first time yesterday. I thought the advocate for the source being the single most critical component was an idiotic outlier.
I had no idea that this was a more widely held philosophy.

I get your point that even an Auratone can show differences in poorly performing sources such as a cassette deck or a turntable with rumble or a inexpensive nonlinear cartridge, but the difference in sound quality between the best and worst turntable is a much smaller delta than between a very ragged poorly designed bandwidth limited speaker and a truly state of the art speaker design.

And today, the difference between the lowest cost CD player or streamer and the best is subtle at best and possibly inaudible depending on the choices. I assume you would agree with that statement, so then how can you say "source first is still absolutely, definitely, 100% totally right."?

Since the differences between fair to excellent sources are less dramatic than the differences between a crap speaker and a truly high fidelity loudspeaker, I can't follow your logic.

 

[Killingbeans]

No- none of that post was a handwave. I'm convinced now since you refuse to answer a simple questions, that you are not interested in evidence. This apparently is about something else, IMO not related to audio.

Even if high order harmonics gives the brain clues about sound pressure levels, you still haven't made it clear why it's relevant when comparing amplifiers?

I think it fair to assume that in order for those hamonics to have any influence on your perception, the most important prerequisite is that they are at an audible level to being with and are not being masked by anything else?

However I'm intrigued as to how you might be able to impose the distortion signature of a particular amplifier upon a music file. Can you explain how you might do that (would you insert an Adcom amplifier into the signal chain)? I doubt that you can do that accurately, but if you could I'd totally be down.

Here ya go: https://distortaudio.org/

 

[ahofer]

I heard this notion for the first time yesterday. I thought the advocate for the source being the single most critical component was an idiotic outlier.
I had no idea that this was a more widely held philosophy.

I get your point that even an Auratone can show differences in poorly performing sources such as a cassette deck or a turntable with rumble or a inexpensive nonlinear cartridge, but the difference in sound quality between the best and worst turntable is a much smaller delta than between a very ragged poorly designed bandwidth limited speaker and a truly state of the art speaker design.

And today, the difference between the lowest cost CD player or streamer and the best is subtle at best and possibly inaudible depending on the choices. I assume you would agree with that statement, so then how can you say "source first is still absolutely, definitely, 100% totally right."?

Since the differences between fair to excellent sources are less dramatic than the differences between a crap speaker and a truly high fidelity loudspeaker, I can't follow your logic.

When I was working at Atlantis Sound in 1978, the sales mantra was 1. Speakers 2. Cartridge 3. turntable and receiver. That was about as helpful as their sales practices got, I think.

 

[SIY]

Even if high order harmonics gives the brain clues about sound pressure levels, you still haven't made it clear why it's relevant when comparing amplifiers?

I think it fair to assume that in order for those hamonics to have any influence on your perception, the most important prerequisite is that they are at an audible level to being with and are not being masked by anything else?



Here ya go: https://distortaudio.org/

You got there first.

Since people have been unable to distinguish amps with moderately low (or better) distortion, flat frequency response, and not clipping when non-auditory clues are removed, the whole hand-wave about harmonics in "the vast majority of solid state amps" is dubious in the extreme.

However... once Ralph picks source material, I'll run the file(s) through Distort with the harmonic profile of a similar Adcom amp (the original 555) to the specific example he gave (which I don't have on hand to measure that profile). To make it easier on him, I'll even use the harmonic profile at a higher frequency than 1kHz, if he wishes, since he also waved his hands about the 565 going from 0.01% to 0.02% in the top octave (the harmonics then landing in the ultrasonic).

Well, Ralph, ready to take the challenge?

edit: If anyone has the harmonic spectra of Ralph's 565 example, I'll be happy to use that instead. I just don't have it at the moment, just measurements on the 555.

 

[ahofer]

Now we’re talkin’!

Let’s do some form of this regardless. Specifically, what level of distortion would be required so a plurality of listeners can tell the difference?

 

[atmasphere]

Even if high order harmonics gives the brain clues about sound pressure levels, you still haven't made it clear why it's relevant when comparing amplifiers?

I think it fair to assume that in order for those hamonics to have any influence on your perception, the most important prerequisite is that they are at an audible level to being with and are not being masked by anything else?



Here ya go: https://distortaudio.org/

I took a look. How do you set it up to duplicate the actual distortion generated by an actual amplifier? How do you set it up so that it does more than just 1 watt spectra?

 

[SIY]

I took a look. How do you set it up to duplicate the actual distortion generated by an actual amplifier? How do you set it up so that it does more than just 1 watt spectra?

The software enables you to choose harmonic order and amplitude.

Just tell me what power and what frequency for the amp, and that's the harmonic profile I'll use.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Some 40 years back, in the UK we had that source first philosophy and I’m quite happy to defend it as it was then. Small speakers can still show differences between badly and well engineered turntables or cassette decks.

And yes, source first is still absolutely, definitely, 100%, totally right. The only thing that’s changed is the relative cost of a near-to-perfect source.

Howdy, well in 2023 the high fidelity source is digital and 90%+ of DAC's sound essentially audibly identical.*
So the 1st source beyond the recording excellence itself, that could be considered is the Pre-amp+amp.
So that said.
I'd MUCH rather listen to extremely well engineered speakers with near full range capability and my dispersion trait of choice connected to the the group of the worst Pre-amp+amps listed on ASR vs poorly engineered speakers with many flaws and crippled extension connected to the group of the best Pre Amp+Amps.

Nobody noticed the Carver Sunfire measures poorly.
But you will notice the Revel Salon sounds better than the Jamo 803 even you use that Carver on the Revel and a Benchmark on the Jamo set.

So, I am speakers 1st as long as the other stuff is not completely broken.

*Besides, really if it source 1st meaning the medium - then tape decks and turntables have no business in the conversation. The only media would be CD or higher quality.
I do realize you are talking about way back when those were the available sources but now they are worthy curiosities, collectables and gifts. With a bastion of snake oil 'source' companies shilling exotic and ridiculously priced tonearms, cartridges and platters. Hand in hand with power chords and $5k speaker wires, this is all now among the Worst of the Worst with the exception that a lot of the expensive 'industry defrauding' analog playback gear does look really cool and I do appreciate that part.

Vinyl(and tapes and reel-reel) is a collectable and I appreciate the folks going out to buy it in fun shops, shows, events ect.
Beyond that in 2023 in terms of the audio industry being a fraud Vinyl is a great fraud. That catalogs come 100+ pages thick now and are filled with the $2k-30k+ turntables. I cringe.

 

[Mr. Widget]

When I was working at Atlantis Sound in 1978, the sales mantra was 1. Speakers 2. Cartridge 3. turntable and receiver. That was about as helpful as their sales practices got, I think.

Not bad advice though. Especially in 1978.

A few years back I saw in Stereophile their system budgeting recommendation and it reserved something like 25% to be dedicated to wires and cables... that brings us full circle to the topic of this thread. As we quickly approach 700 posts.

 

[Axo1989]

Not bad advice though. Especially in 1978.

A few years back I saw in Stereophile their system budgeting recommendation and it reserved something like 25% to be dedicated to wires and cables... that brings us full circle to the topic of this thread. As we quickly approach 700 posts.

Hmmm ... last time I bought speakers I added some nice wires for aesthetic/haptic reasons but still didn't manage > 5%. I guess if the speakers were cheaper the cable fraction would have been higher, but that's probably not what the Stereophile dude in question had in mind. And I'd want a roughly consistent level of fanciness in any case, so likely would have skipped the cables in that scenario.

 

[Axo1989]

Howdy, well in 2023 the high fidelity source is digital and 90%+ of DAC's sound essentially audibly identical.*
So the 1st source beyond the recording excellence itself, that could be considered is the Pre-amp+amp.
So that said.
I'd MUCH rather listen to extremely well engineered speakers with near full range capability and my dispersion trait of choice connected to the the group of the worst Pre-amp+amps listed on ASR vs poorly engineered speakers with many flaws and crippled extension connected to the group of the best Pre Amp+Amps.

Nobody noticed the Carver Sunfire measures poorly.
But you will notice the Revel Salon sounds better than the Jamo 803 even you use that Carver on the Revel and a Benchmark on the Jamo set.

So, I am speakers 1st as long as the other stuff is not completely broken.

*Besides, really if it source 1st meaning the medium - then tape decks and turntables have no business in the conversation. The only media would be CD or higher quality.
I do realize you are talking about way back when those were the available sources but now they are worthy curiosities, collectables and gifts. With a bastion of snake oil 'source' companies shilling exotic and ridiculously priced tonearms, cartridges and platters. Hand in hand with power chords and $5k speaker wires, this is all now among the Worst of the Worst with the exception that a lot of the expensive 'industry defrauding' analog playback gear does look really cool and I do appreciate that part.

Vinyl(and tapes and reel-reel) is a collectable and I appreciate the folks going out to buy it in fun shops, shows, events ect.
Beyond that in 2023 in terms of the audio industry being a fraud Vinyl is a great fraud. That catalogs come 100+ pages thick now and are filled with the $2k-30k+ turntables. I cringe.

Given that audibility of vinyl-as-source doesn't really impose much in the way of sonic degradation (and sometimes sounds better due to the mix/master in question) I don't see overpriced/over-engineered vinyl gear as any more egregious than overpriced gear in general.

 

[atmasphere]

The software enables you to choose harmonic order and amplitude.

Just tell me what power and what frequency for the amp, and that's the harmonic profile I'll use.

What is meant by 'frequency'?
The power level should be -6db of full power; the amp should have a standard test load (IOW not just an 8 Ohm non-inductive resistor).

 

[ahofer]

The software enables you to choose harmonic order and amplitude.

Just tell me what power and what frequency for the amp, and that's the harmonic profile I'll use.

Ever think about making this a Roon plug-in?

 

[Ken1951]

You got there first.

Since people have been unable to distinguish amps with moderately low (or better) distortion, flat frequency response, and not clipping when non-auditory clues are removed, the whole hand-wave about harmonics in "the vast majority of solid state amps" is dubious in the extreme.

However... once Ralph picks source material, I'll run the file(s) through Distort with the harmonic profile of a similar Adcom amp (the original 555) to the specific example he gave (which I don't have on hand to measure that profile). To make it easier on him, I'll even use the harmonic profile at a higher frequency than 1kHz, if he wishes, since he also waved his hands about the 565 going from 0.01% to 0.02% in the top octave (the harmonics then landing in the ultrasonic).

Well, Ralph, ready to take the challenge?

edit: If anyone has the harmonic spectra of Ralph's 565 example, I'll be happy to use that instead. I just don't have it at the moment, just measurements on the 555.

My 555 drove my Magnepans when new and my S8s now and sounds, well, like nothing other than what ever it's playing. At least to me. I doubt if I could tell any difference from any other amp. Or if anyone else could either.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Given that audibility of vinyl-as-source doesn't really impose much in the way of sonic degradation (and sometimes sounds better due to the mix/master in question) I don't see overpriced/over-engineered vinyl gear as any more egregious than overpriced gear in general.

Well, objectively vinyl is far inferior to CD standard.
It is inferior to any basic streaming subscriptions compression algorithms.
Subjectively = 'shrug', up to you I guess.

Any sound quality 'improvement' due to the master is due to differences in the way it was mixed not due to vinyl being higher or equal fidelity.

Most differences are to accomodate the limitation of the medium and production, such as the high expense cutting high frequency information accurately and saving space by vastly lowering the fidelity of the bass.
RIAA ' standards' are involved and other things.
I also realize some vinyl masters are preferred but someine should just put that master on CD/Digital. It would sound the same or better. (Especailly sans the pops and clicks)

Anyway I am not poo-pooing vinyl as a hobby or trying to turn this into a digital vs vinyl thread.
but the high priced analog gear IMHO is a worst case offender. Some $20k speakers are still justified IMHO but I dont think even 1 single $20k turntable is.

With the caveat I mentioned that some of these pieces are gorgeous works of craft and art so yah as art/sculptures/master craft that part is maybe passable if you are type to buy $50k painting and $20k rugs and stuff. Support art the arts.

 

[Gringoaudio1]

Some 40 years back, in the UK we had that source first philosophy and I’m quite happy to defend it as it was then. Small speakers can still show differences between badly and well engineered turntables or cassette decks.

And yes, source first is still absolutely, definitely, 100%, totally right. The only thing that’s changed is the relative cost of a near-to-perfect source.

Totally obsolete notion.

 

[Mnyb]

I heard this notion for the first time yesterday. I thought the advocate for the source being the single most critical component was an idiotic outlier.
I had no idea that this was a more widely held philosophy.

I get your point that even an Auratone can show differences in poorly performing sources such as a cassette deck or a turntable with rumble or a inexpensive nonlinear cartridge, but the difference in sound quality between the best and worst turntable is a much smaller delta than between a very ragged poorly designed bandwidth limited speaker and a truly state of the art speaker design.

And today, the difference between the lowest cost CD player or streamer and the best is subtle at best and possibly inaudible depending on the choices. I assume you would agree with that statement, so then how can you say "source first is still absolutely, definitely, 100% totally right."?

Since the differences between fair to excellent sources are less dramatic than the differences between a crap speaker and a truly high fidelity loudspeaker, I can't follow your logic.

I agree it’s an absurd extreme, ofcourse the source should be decent, but dedicate most of the budget there ?

And Linn who was proponents of this idea to the extreme started of by only building a source it was all they had before electronics and speakers appeared in thier lineup ? And expensive ofcourse they wanted everyone to buy it ?

My current source is a raspberry pi connected to my Meridian HT it sounds exactly the same as the fancy DVDA player I have ( on content both can handle)

 

[SIY]

What is meant by 'frequency'?
The power level should be -6db of full power; the amp should have a standard test load (IOW not just an 8 Ohm non-inductive resistor).

What specifically is a "standard test load"? FWIW, I see no difference in distortion with the 555 using a resistor versus a speaker, but I'll play along.

Frequency means "the fundamental frequency used to acquire a spectrum." A couple people (you perhaps as well?) complained that the 50Hz spectrum in Stereophile's measurements was no good. So, 1kHz? 5kHz? 200Hz? 50Hz? 2.1535795kHz?

 

[SIY]

My 555 drove my Magnepans when new and my S8s now and sounds, well, like nothing other than what ever it's playing. At least to me. I doubt if I could tell any difference from any other amp. Or if anyone else could either.

Ditto. I've driven a bunch of speakers with it and it's always been clean and neutral. Which is why I'm somewhat skeptical when someone selling competitive product claims with no actual data that it sounds bright and harsh. Maybe it does and I don't hear it, but let's see if he can.

I should also mention that it's been dead nuts reliable. I bought it in maybe 1985 and haven't ever had a failure beyond popped fuses, and that only happened because I was using it to drive weird test signals at high power.

 

[atmasphere]

What specifically is a "standard test load"? FWIW, I see no difference in distortion with the 555 using a resistor versus a speaker, but I'll play along.

Frequency means "the fundamental frequency used to acquire a spectrum." A couple people (you perhaps as well?) complained that the 50Hz spectrum in Stereophile's measurements was no good. So, 1kHz? 5kHz? 200Hz? 50Hz? 2.1535795kHz?

A standard test load is a network which loads the amp in a way that a loudspeaker does. test loads
Can you acquire everything in the audio band up to 15KHz (that is safely beyond my hearing these days)? Will it be the same as the actual amplifier?