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Neumann KH 150 Monitor Review

Rate this studio monitor

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 3 0.6%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 44 8.5%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 470 90.9%

  • Total voters
    517
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amirm

amirm

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I don't listen to music or watch movies in mono.
Doesn't matter what you do or think. What matters is what is correct:


It would be trivial for me to make up subjective remarks about the sound. It doesn't mean any of it is accurate or has any value whatsoever. Heaven knows 90% of the reviews out there claim every speaker images great....
 
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amirm

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Erin said that the Ex Machina speaker had the best soundstage he has ever heard
And why is that a reliable observation? And how does it related to you? Do you listen to the same music? Sit in the same spot? Have the same room? Have speakers pointed the same way? How do you know he is not biased by what he is seeing instead of what he is hearing?

Why are you so anxious to believe stuff you can't put any accuracy score on?

I don't do listening tests just to pontificate on the sound. I test the measurements to see if they are accurate. If there is a peak at 2 kHz, I pull it down and see if the sound is better. I don't just listen and randomly make comments about bass being that, midrange being this, or soundstage being something different. You need to divorce yourself from the things that don't bring any substance to a review.
 

kimmosto

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I don't do listening tests just to pontificate on the sound. I test the measurements to see if they are accurate.
Why you measure if listening is valid for quality control of measurements as more accurate ;)

What matters is what is correct:
AES paper you are referring does not include conclusion or claims that stereo listening cannot reveal anything else than mono. Just that tonal balance and directivity errors (via reflection field) are audible as mono i.e. stereo is not needed to measure difference in preference by listening.
Claims that mono tells everything about everything would be false so it's perfectly natural it is not written. Especially when study is done with such a crap speaker. Using affordable - almost trash products is typical for Harman's studies so I don't wonder why conclusions and preference rating are so simplified and limited to one parameter (magnitude responses) only. High correlation is easy to get with products having clear differences in the most significant feature. Basic science for mass markets.
 
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amirm

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Why you measure if listening is valid for quality control of measurements as more accurate ;)
You didn't read what I wrote. The instructions for what I listen to comes from measurements. Listening tests qualify the impact of errors shown in measurements.
 
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amirm

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AES paper you are referring does not include conclusion or claims that stereo listening cannot reveal anything else than mono. Just that tonal balance and directivity errors (via reflection field) are audible as mono i.e. stereo is not needed to measure difference in preference by listening
Nope. Once again you didn't bother watching what I post. The second paper absolutely covers this.
 
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amirm

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Especially when study is done with such a crap speaker. Using affordable - almost trash products is typical for Harman's studies so I don't wonder why conclusions and preference rating are so simplified and limited to one parameter (magnitude responses) only.
Oh really? They used $14000 B&W Speakers in Room EQ study. You call them trash? How about Martin Logan? I showed both in the video. But you couldn't be bothered to watch. Study more, complain less.
 

kimmosto

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They used $14000 B&W Speakers in Room EQ study. You call them trash?
Sure, though it's not affordable trash.

1671363036661.png

How would you call them?
 

kimmosto

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The second paper absolutely covers this.
You probably refer to imaging - how small or large sound objects are in mono. Absolutely does not cover everything about everything. All studies in practice have some limitations related to speaker concept, environment and locations. Including one electrostatic does not change that.
 
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m_g_s_g

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Neumann's in the house ;) Also got delivery of the Grovemade Desk Shelf.

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Definitely a big improvement in sound compared with my Dynaudio BM5 MKIII. Sound stage and stereo image is crazy with the Neumanns compared with the Dynaudio's. These are keepers for sure. Also got the MA1 mic but calibration is going to take a few days, after Christmas most likely and I have 2 weeks vacation starting on the 26th ;)
Nice looking. Interestingly, you seem to be using Ergotron mounts for your display monitors. I'm using that brands mounts for my KH80s (I followed a set up that @jhaider 's shared here in ASR a while back).

(I used to use Ergotron mounts for my display monitors as well, but I've moved since to a single 50" 4K TV as PC display).
 

m_g_s_g

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I’m a bit surprised that IPv6 is required for MA-1.

“IPv6 supported and enabled”

If the KH150 work in the same way as the KH80s, the speakers are reachable through an "internal" IPv6 address (they don't need/get a DHCPv6 IP from your router).

The iPad app OR the MA-1 Windows app can then launch a "discovery" and the speakers will answer to it. That's how the controlling apps can then talk to the speakers, using IP sockets with the discovered addresses.

In conclusion: you don't really need to have a complete IPv6 setup at home. It's enough if you don't specifically block it in your network (at router / switches level). Some routers will show you the KH IPv6 address while you are using the apps (my Unifi does).

P.S.: I developed an Android app for my internal use to control my KH80s.
 

Digby

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I wonder how a similar system but with KH150 instead of KH310 would sound /look like compared to this one.
Can someone explain why the unit underneath the TV always has to be at least as wide as the TV. I don't have a TV Shrine, so must have missed the memo.
 

geisa75

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Hi everyone,

New here and looking for some infos. Juste installed my new KH150's in my studio, very happy with them in my room. Just wanted to know if it is possible to control them via Neumann Control iPad app. I bought them because of the internal DSP : I planned to do measurements with REW and my Behringer mic, and then to just tweak the EQ via IP connection to correct the curve. I know that MA-1 software is unlocked only when you buy a mic, but I thought that the iPad app should buy sufficient for my case, nevertheless the KH 150 doesn't seem to be supported by the app yet...
I don't wan't to spend 260€ more to buy a measurement mic I don't really need only to unlock the internal DSP control of my speakers...
 

DJBonoBobo

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Hi everyone,

New here and looking for some infos. Juste installed my new KH150's in my studio, very happy with them in my room. Just wanted to know if it is possible to control them via Neumann Control iPad app. I bought them because of the internal DSP : I planned to do measurements with REW and my Behringer mic, and then to just tweak the EQ via IP connection to correct the curve. I know that MA-1 software is unlocked only when you buy a mic, but I thought that the iPad app should buy sufficient for my case, nevertheless the KH 150 doesn't seem to be supported by the app yet...
I don't wan't to spend 260€ more to buy a measurement mic I don't really need only to unlock the internal DSP control of my speakers...
AFAIK the ipad app has not been updated for 3+ years, which is a shame. I don´t understand why Neumann has abandoned it without a equal successor.
Theoretically the speakers could be controlled via open source software, but as far as i understand there is no app ready to use yet. Look here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ound-control-protocol-ssc.38607/#post-1360730

I think you could use the MA1-software for some basic settings (logo brightness, volume) without having the mic, but you can´t control the EQ filters.

You can also try to "cheat" the software like described here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...c-monitor-alignment.17902/page-11#post-722060
I don´t know if this still works.
 

geisa75

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AFAIK the ipad app has not been updated for 3+ years, which is a shame. I don´t understand why Neumann has abandoned it without a equal successor.
Theoretically the speakers could be controlled via open source software, but as far as i understand there is no app ready to use yet. Look here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ound-control-protocol-ssc.38607/#post-1360730

I think you could use the MA1-software for some basic settings (logo brightness, volume) without having the mic, but you can´t control the EQ filters.

You can also try to "cheat" the software like described here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...c-monitor-alignment.17902/page-11#post-722060
I don´t know if this still works.
Thanks for you answer,
I'll look at those solutions, and if they don't work I guess i'll spend some bucks on the measurement mic...
Apart of this, really pleased with the system. Compared it with Genelec 8340 and the Neumann seemed much more flatter, "boring" in a certain way, with perhaps less perceived dynamics. But exactly what I looked for mixing purposes, especially in the low-end... the Genelec are amazing, pleasing and generous but I think that it is easy to make mixes translate with the KH150's.
 

m_g_s_g

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Theoretically the speakers could be controlled via open source software, but as far as i understand there is no app ready to use yet. Look here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ound-control-protocol-ssc.38607/#post-1360730
That documents help, but the commands to send to each specific device (I.e. : KH80, KH750, KH150?) can/will change and this is not documented.

The EQ data to send to get/set from/to the KH80 is trickier than simple mute/volume/LED brightness control (but at least it is in cleartext - for now).

Another tricky part is the speaker (ip) discovery protocol. It's supposed to be standards based (Bonjour, Zeroconf), but I found it buggy at times and (at that time, one year ago) not very well supported by Android.

I don't really know if there would be a strong interest to develop an open source solution. At the KH750/KH150 price point I guess their (fortunate) owners will just pay for the MA-1 plus mic. And I (a humble and fortunate KH80 owner) just EQ at the source now.
 

kimmosto

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The second paper absolutely covers this.
Very sorry that I answer twice to the same. Sure mono can reveal overall tonal balance and directivity errors better, but Toole's conclusions are not that mono is better for revealing some truth or preference about spatial quality (or anything else than studied). That's also perfectly natural imo because a) mono is irrelevant for evaluating spatial quality with stereo recording targeted to stereo listening i.e. normal usage of stereo system b) different shape of polar pattern, and level and spectrum of directivity creates different "virtual" sound stage in mono with room reflections. The last one is very sensitive to recording, listening environment (acoustics) and geometry. It's the most probable reason why rank of two tested speakers in mono/stereo series II swapped, and the worst one (dipole) in mono test is very close to as preferred as two others in stereo. So stereo lifts its rank to whole new level. Now we can just speculate that it could be clear #1 in stereo without the lowest preference in sound quality. Ok, everyone with decent experience should know that and obvious limits of mono listening for overall quality without Toole's papers from the 80s'. Of course mono is quick and easy so go ahead with it, but don't expect consensus. My wish is that you should not publish any listening impressions if they are not more thorough and you don't reveal acoustics and geometry of your listening environment.
 
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database

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Very sorry that I answer twice to the same. Sure mono can reveal overall tonal balance and directivity errors better, but Toole's conclusions are not that mono is better for revealing some truth or preference about spatial quality (or anything else than studied). That's also perfectly natural imo because a) mono is irrelevant for evaluating spatial quality with stereo recording targeted to stereo listening i.e. normal usage of stereo system b) different shape of polar pattern, and level and spectrum of directivity creates different "virtual" sound stage in mono with room reflections. The last one is very sensitive to recording, listening environment (acoustics) and geometry. It's the most probable reason why rank of two tested speakers in mono/stereo series II swapped, and the worst one (dipole) in mono test is very close to as preferred as two others in stereo. So stereo lifts its rank to whole new level. Now we can just speculate that it could be clear #1 in stereo without the lowest preference in sound quality. Ok, everyone with decent experience should know that and obvious limits of mono listening for overall quality without Toole's papers from the 80s'. Of course mono is quick and easy so go ahead with it, but don't expect much trust and consensus. My wish is that you should not publish any listening impressions if they are not more thorough and you don't reveal acoustics and geometry of your listening environment.
That's my experience as well - I have strongly preferred one speaker in mono and a different speaker in stereo when doing blind level matched ABX tests, and I'm not the only one who has shared a similar experience before. I don't think these experiences contradict the conclusion of the papers in question either, I think their conclusion is being stretched into an absolute which was never claimed by the papers to begin with.
 

Eetu

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KH310 will always sound better because of its dedicated midrange driver.
A 3-way has the potential to be better but in this case the KH 310A has directivity error around 1kHz and (surprisingly enough) shows more distortion across the board, especially in low bass. This new woofer is quite an achievement.
 
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