8361A’s - First Impressions

[Pearljam5000]

Anyone considered the 8361 but went with 1237 instead Becaue of SPL limitations?
If I sit 2 meters from the 8361 without a sub is there any chance I wouldn't have enough volume?
I'm confused by it Becaue the KH120 had enough SPL to blow my ears out from 1.5 meters away and they're tiny.

 

[ernestcarl]

I'm confused by it Becaue the KH120 had enough SPL to blow my ears out from 1.5 meters away and they're tiny.

That likely excludes the sub bass. Even at less than one meter, they can run out of juice in that region, IME.

 

[srrxr71]

I know this is not the whole story, but this makes me feel better about aiming for 8351s which pass the can I pick them up without fear of injury test.

Well they test the same i’m just going by that. But these were my first quick impressions. But in practice there is more bass and it’s more satisfying at lower levels.

I could speculate that they have a better image or use a bunch of adjectives but it wouldn’t be right for me to. New toy syndrome is a thing. Some parts of the mix do jump out at me but I can’t say for certain the 8341 set up at the same height and angle wouldn’t do the same. So i’m not going to comment on that. Certainly I have no business commenting on 8351 vs 8361 as I have not had the 8351 in my room.



As I said before you pretty much can’t have enough bass. When it’s as clean as this.

Now when I run a sweep and confirm the issue is below 250Hz which everything is pointing to then you may find that picking the 8361 vs 8351 might save you from buying a pair of w371 unless that is the intention from day one.

I suppose if you have the W371s it doesn’t matter but then again even someone at Genelec said they prefer the 8361 with the w371 fwiw.

It’s not that bad. Any of us can lift 72lbs I suppose especially with that nice strap. Once it’s mounted you never worry about it again. Especially you don’t worry about “want if”.

All of this for now less than $800 difference.

I too went with 8341 thinking of size and weight and appearance over 8351. Using numbers etc. It worked in a smaller room in an apartment setting but you never know how much output you may need. I remember your room was 20x40. I wouldn’t take any chances with that size room. At the end of the day size weight and appearance didn’t float my boat. SPL did.

 

[srrxr71]

These must look enormous coming from 8341’s. It wasn’t as big a jump for me coming from 1032’s, lol.

These monitors are really the first ones I have to periodically check what level I’m listening at. I don’t know if it’s the clarity or being point-source or what. I have a dB meter on my watch and more than a few times already when I glance at it I’m approaching 90dB during listening sessions without realizing it, and that’s at a 4m listening distance.

Yeah they are so clear that cranking it up feels so good.


Also it’s not just the size. It’s that they have the exact same shape. That fact is what really messes with the mind. It’s almost hilarious. I’ve seen the 8260 in real life so I knew they are massive. But seeing this is so crazy. It’s really like the 8341 ate a magic mushroom.

 

[srrxr71]

A single 8361A will play *at least* 118dB @ 1m in the midrange, and in-room losses are typically 4-ish dB per 2x distance, so with two speakers you can definitely play a lot more than 112dB @ 3m. It will be significantly less than that in bass, and heavily dependent on how much boundary reinforcement the speakers are getting. The speakers are specced for 109dB average below 100hz and 118dB average 100hz-3khz (in half space, both). Proper testing has always confirmed their accuracy to date.

To effectively test this, you need to run a slow sweep and see at what frequencies the speakers are actually limiting. Playing music and guessing isn't going to work. If you're being limited by the output below 250hz but above sub cross(which is very possible), then the only fix is going to be W371As or (possibly) moving the speakers to get more boundary reinforcement.

All that said, 112dBC on a slow SPL meter is incredibly loud. In my testing, slow averaging underrates real peaks by at least 10dB, or even more. And dbC also cuts real values below 100hz even further. I've never played any music louder than 95-100dBC on a slow SPL meter, and even that is typically too loud for more than a few tracks before turning it down. Except I guess for weird things like Recondite - Pour where all the output is low bass.


You can disable the lights in GLM, not totally sure if it prevents a red light, but it's worth a try.

Yeah I need to test them properly. Yesterday was just “let’s see what happens when I crank them up”.

The first song was bass heavy so I tried “fast car” which I suppose is also bass heavy just not in the way we think.

I would try more like Rickie Lee Jones for bass light recordings (not the Walter Becker produced one - that has bass).

The 8341s would protect with just vocals. I’ve yet to try these. Unfortunately I need to get to work so it won’t be until evening or even next week.

I’m more going for trusting the tests and enjoying them this weekend and/or adjusting their position to deal with dips i’m seeing at 90, 120Hz. Must be the floor reflection? So I have a whole new can of worms to deal with given the new height to the floor/ceiling. I might even raise them a bit.

Yes that light can be disabled but not the red light. So on the 8341s I had VHB tape on the lights.

Weekend listening will be the real test.


One other thing. As soon as set up the group I set the crossover at 60Hz instead of the 75Hz - 100hz I was using with the 8341s. The subs need relief too as they tend to clip as well. They clip less with these but still clip. The left one clips more often for whatever reason. Lowering the crossover helps the subs have headroom. Hopefully in 2 weeks that will be in the past.

 

[srrxr71]

I guess that explains my max bass tests with 1032C and 1237A being so close to the figures. They were against the wall.

Anyway, bass is pretty much always the limiting factor, I'm sure no one wants to listen very high SPLs without boosted lows and/or steep downwards tilt house curve. In that sense the maximum SPL in highs is academic, assuming it's not seriously crippled, and not listening from extreme distances etc.

Yes I read you were aiming for the 1234A. Might be better to just add subs.

When I boost lows I boost +3dB from 0-200Hz. The GLM calibration seems a lot more liberal about allowing more boost in the lows.

In fact I even get a warning I’ve never seen before. Applying my +3dB on top of the GLM calibration creates a +6dB boost around 130Hz. It pops up warnings about that. Let me try to get a picture. Attached.

So it happily boosts above that dip and when I added +3dB from 0-200Hz it was not happy.

 

[hege]

Yes I read you were aiming for the 1234A. Might be better to just add subs.

Well honestly I don't really need anything better right now. I do like the easiness and body that 1234/1235A bring to the table. But even they would need subs for the last 25hz punch in some tracks.

What fancies me would be simplifying my setup, so I don't need all the software EQ multi-channel hassles. But that would require going all in with GLM. So one or two 7380A, but I hate that they are so awkwardly large and deep, compared to my sealed 18" BMS speaker stands (at 1/5 of the price). I might barely fit one behind the couch.

That's why I even entertained things like Perlisten S7t which should do 25hz decendly. But more I think about passives, the more I'm terrified I will just pop the woofers or even tweeter.. actives like Genelec are so nice with the protections and clear indicators. How much does replacement drivers for Kef Blade cost?

 

[srrxr71]

Well honestly I don't really need anything better right now. I do like the easiness and body that 1234/1235A bring to the table. But even they would need subs for the last 25hz punch in some tracks.

What fancies me would be simplifying my setup, so I don't need all the software EQ multi-channel hassles. But that would require going all in with GLM. So one or two 7380A, but I hate that they are so awkwardly large and deep, compared to my sealed 18" BMS speaker stands (at 1/5 of the price). I might barely fit one behind the couch.

That why I even entertained things like Perlisten S7t which should do 25hz decendly. But more I think about passives, the more I'm terrified I will just pop the woofers or even tweeter.. actives like Genelec are so nice with the protections and clear indicators. How much does replacement drivers for Kef Blade cost?

Oh yeah definitely. I mean I really abused these 8341 (there goes any idea of selling them on here haha) these last few weeks while waiting for the 8361s.

It’s not even an issue. They protect themselves. I even watch a video on YouTube with music sourced from an old VHS recording. It has pops and loud artifacts which i would cry if they happened on passives.

Having the whole system engineered together makes so much sense. No finger pointing when things go wrong.

They might send you a replacement driver for cheap or even free but you may have to self install or bear $300+ shipping cost to send the whole speaker back.

The GLM system is great but expensive as you add subs and yes I have nightmares already about how i’m going to move 152lbs around the place. I hope it’s enough. I really just want to be done and avoid the W371s for now. Probably I will end up with them because it’s still a game until end game. Knowing they exist means always wanting them.

I’m about to head into crunch time soon and I may as well just get this system done before I hunker down and focus my efforts on other more important things. So who knows I might just bite the bullet on those and not look back. No use in waiting.

The 7380 is the obvious choice for now because they are only sub that would help the W371 and if you look at pricing the 7370 is pointless when the difference is so small. Same for 8351 vs 8361. No point getting the smaller model.

 

[hege]

W371 would probably satisfy me even without subs. There was just a complete 8361+W371 system for sale nearby at 26000€. I'd get that over Kef Blade even without hearing them.. need to buy loads of current crypto dip to achieve that anytime in the future though.

 

[srrxr71]

W371 would probably satisfy me even without subs. There was just a complete 8361+W371 system for sale nearby at 26000€. I'd get that over Kef Blade even without hearing them.. need to buy loads of current crypto dip to achieve that anytime in the future though.

You’d be surprised. I don’t know for sure but they call it a woofer system not a subwoofer system. From what I read about it, it still needs a sub - especially for people like us. For that purpose i’m not buying a sub with a smaller drive unit than the woofer in my mains. So 7380 is the only way. Probably you would only need one though. Probably still would cross it over at 60Hz maybe 50Hz. Maybe overlap it a bit.

The W371 is really designed for 60-300Hz as I understand it. So a sub is needed. Budget accordingly haha.

I feel like if I get enough mid bass from the 8361 and get my room treatments working right I can just avoid the W371s. It’s really for that special purpose. The problem is we would never know until we try and that try is expensive and non returnable.

Probably better to be happy with what we already have.

All I know is if I go W371s it will be ramen noodles for dinner for a while.

 

[hege]

The W371 is really designed for 60-300Hz as I understand it. So a sub is needed. Budget accordingly haha.

I would imagine the ported 12" should output quite decendly at 23-25hz which is the -6-3dB point. The specs say 123dB peak with unlimited(?) pink noise. But 120dB short term with 100-500hz. Dunno what the actual deep output is.

While it's fun to watch rocket launches, it's just a novelty really for me, and I don't care about movie effects either..

 

[aland]

You’d be surprised. I don’t know for sure but they call it a woofer system not a subwoofer system. From what I read about it, it still needs a sub - especially for people like us. For that purpose i’m not buying a sub with a smaller drive unit than the woofer in my mains. So 7380 is the only way. Probably you would only need one though. Probably still would cross it over at 60Hz maybe 50Hz. Maybe overlap it a bit.

The W371 is really designed for 60-300Hz as I understand it. So a sub is needed. Budget accordingly haha.

I feel like if I get enough mid bass from the 8361 and get my room treatments working right I can just avoid the W371s. It’s really for that special purpose. The problem is we would never know until we try and that try is expensive and non returnable.

Probably better to be happy with what we already have.

All I know is if I go W371s it will be ramen noodles for dinner for a while.

Well you have two things to take into account by adding a sub to the woofer system.
- the room has to be treated very well so you get that clean bottom end (sub 40hz) so it doesn't destroy the superb output from the W371
- it could be difficult to get the sub correctly phased to the W371A over the whole sub-spectrum

The bass that the W371:s is producing is so extremely clean, fast and correct. I'm not sure if I would add a sub if there is even a small risk of making the overall sound worse just the get the rumble. Maybe a dual sub-system is better for bass junkies than the W371:s. I would think so. (been there, done that).

 

[srrxr71]

I would imagine the ported 12" should output quite decendly at 23-25hz which is the -6-3dB point. The specs say 123dB peak with unlimited(?) pink noise. But 120dB short term with 100-500hz. Dunno what the actual deep output is.

While it's fun to watch rocket launches, it's just a novelty really for me, and I don't care about movie effects either..

Unfortunately the 2 drive units actually work against each other. That’s the whole point of them.

I’ve done the armchair numbers things before and it doesn’t work. We could go into details but it just doesn’t mean satisfaction.

The numbers are meaningful but just because they extend to a certain point doesn’t mean much. I can’t explain why the subs add so much to these. I can’t explain why they even keep clipping. If anyone can I’d like to learn.

Also I have never had any business with movie soundtracks and I’ve used that line of reasoning so many times. It’s shocking to me how easily I fell to the other side.

I just want to feel my bass a little better. Maybe I should hook up my butt kicker. But really in a space especially as large as mine (not really large actually) I find my subs clipping on music. I can’t have that happening.

I never imagined having more output under 40Hz matters. All the theory about lowest bass guitar and all that.

In fact I never even liked bass. Because it normally sounds like crap. Even when I hit my first subwoofer and even calibrated it was uncomfortable to me. I guess part of that is apartment living. But still uncomfortable.

I got used to it and tuned it better. Now I can’t get enough.

We will see when the 7380 gets here.

I never imagined I would be where I am now. I thought a pair of 8341s and maybe one sub for the heck of it would be enough.

How wrong I was.

Edit: Also when we calibrate essentially we just give up our room gains for the sake of accuracy. Accurate bass is expensive. You can wing it and add it back being careful to avoid any room modes. But everything that improves accuracy steals SPL. That means room treatments and calibration. If I left it uncalibrated I bet I would be happy with the SPL I would get from room reinforcement. But that bass is so muddy and now that I’ve heard clean tight bass I can’t get enough of it.

 

[YSC]

Unfortunately the 2 drive units actually work against each other. That’s the whole point of them.

I’ve done the armchair numbers things before and it doesn’t work. We could go into details but it just doesn’t mean satisfaction.

The numbers are meaningful but just because they extend to a certain point doesn’t mean much. I can’t explain why the subs add so much to these. I can’t explain why they even keep clipping. If anyone can I’d like to learn.

Also I have never had any business with movie soundtracks and I’ve used that line of reasoning so many times. It’s shocking to me how easily I fell to the other side.

I just want to feel my bass a little better. Maybe I should hook up my butt kicker. But really in a space especially as large as mine (not really large actually) I find my subs clipping on music. I can’t have that happening.

I never imagined having more output under 40Hz matters. All the theory about lowest bass guitar and all that.

In fact I never even liked bass. Because it normally sounds like crap. Even when I hit my first subwoofer and even calibrated it was uncomfortable to me. I guess part of that is apartment living. But still uncomfortable.

I got used to it and tuned it better. Now I can’t get enough.

We will see when the 7380 gets here.

I never imagined I would be where I am now. I thought a pair of 8341s and maybe one sub for the heck of it would be enough.

How wrong I was.

Edit: Also when we calibrate essentially we just give up our room gains for the sake of accuracy. Accurate bass is expensive. You can wing it and add it back being careful to avoid any room modes. But everything that improves accuracy steals SPL. That means room treatments and calibration. If I left it uncalibrated I bet I would be happy with the SPL I would get from room reinforcement. But that bass is so muddy and now that I’ve heard clean tight bass I can’t get enough of it.

one way to feel enough: make yourself poor (by giving the savings to... your wife). when disposible money is tight, you will spend more time listening and enjoy music than tinker around

 

[srrxr71]

one way to feel enough: make yourself poor (by giving the savings to... your wife). when disposible money is tight, you will spend more time listening and enjoy music than tinker around

So true. I could have been happy at any level. The LS50w but that thought of IMD bothered me. The 8341 was right where I could have stopped.

On feel you can try a $200 buttkicker. I will try it after add that last sub.

However clipping lights are a problem. What can you do? You would have to tinker to deal with that problem or put a lock on the volume knob. Or sell everything and get JBL SRX835. Nobody wants to tinker. Just solve issues. Sometimes it’s better if you didn’t know it’s clipping.

 

[Pearljam5000]

How much louder is a KH420 compared to 8361?

 

[srrxr71]

Well you have two things to take into account by adding a sub to the woofer system.
- the room has to be treated very well so you get that clean bottom end (sub 40hz) so it doesn't destroy the superb output from the W371
- it could be difficult to get the sub correctly phased to the W371A over the whole sub-spectrum

The bass that the W371:s is producing is so extremely clean, fast and correct. I'm not sure if I would add a sub if there is even a small risk of making the overall sound worse just the get the rumble. Maybe a dual sub-system is better for bass junkies than the W371:s. I would think so. (been there, done that).

Okay basically it is impossible to treat a room to absorb 40Hz. I mean you could but you use up half the space.

The w371 is directive down to 60Hz so I would let it handle that. Also if you are sitting close you get a good balance of direct vs indirect sound. If sit far the room matters more. Sure they shoot out the bass in a directive manner but what happens after that? The room still matters. If you have a room mode it will still ring. Probably not as much if you sit close.

Below 60Hz you have to go mutisub.

I would not overlap the crossover points but I would let the complementary mode do what it does. Whatever it is designed to do.

I have 3 subs already so I will attack each band with the best approach for each band. (2 here and one coming).

 

[aland]

Okay basically it is impossible to treat a room to absorb 40Hz. I mean you could but you use up half the space.

The w371 is directive down to 60Hz so I would let it handle that. Also if you are sitting close you get a good balance of direct vs indirect sound. If sit far the room matters more. Sure they shoot out the bass in a directive manner but what happens after that? The room still matters. If you have a room mode it will still ring. Probably not as much if you sit close.

Below 60Hz you have to go mutisub.

I would not overlap the crossover points but I would let the complementary mode do what it does. Whatever it is designed to do.

I have 3 subs already so I will attack each band with the best approach for each band. (2 here and one coming).

Just trying to explain benefits of 371s without sub. I came from dual 7360s to w371s. And all different modes have to be tested and compared. I don't think that you can in advance estimate which mode is best for your room. I usually change modes depending on genre or my mood.
I sit close and room is medium treated.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Genelec 8361A - Tested | Production Expert

In this extended On Test article Julian tries the flagship of the Genelec The Ones series of co-axial monitors - the 8361A. Find out why he thinks these unusual monitors are the perfect example of a focused design.

www.pro-tools-expert.com

A nice review

 

[srrxr71]

Just trying to explain benefits of 371s without sub. I came from dual 7360s to w371s. And all different modes have to be tested and compared. I don't think that you can in advance estimate which mode is best for your room. I usually change modes depending on genre or my mood.
I sit close and room is medium treated.

Yeah very similar to my setup now. Except no W371 haha. What would happen if you let the 2 7360s run below 50Hz? Have you tried it?


The 7360s are sort of a waste of time with W371s honestly. But a single 7380 under 50Hz or even 40Hz can’t be a bad thing. As long as you’re not exciting any room modes. In fact I need to do an experiment and roll off under 35Hz (since I have 2 room modes there) and try it. Maybe I will like it even better.

I did learn recently that controlling even so called “inaudible” room modes helps a lot due to potential interference effects.

Even Genelec tell you in a bigger space you may need a sub.

I like to hear from people with experience with the product i’m looking to acquire. I just want to know if you tried all the combinations. But really 7360s are totally outclassed by the W371.