Big news coming from Sound United in 2023!

[Jon AA]

Because every single one of the general AVR RC products will only make good speakers sound worse outside the bass, when used full range. This is coming from Toole, so don’t doubt it, especially not based on the plethora of sighted listening reports drowning the room correction discussion…even your own.

While that is technically true, it's important to remember the context. The context in which Toole says those things about room EQ has always been without anechoic knowledge of the speaker. Thanks to Amir and Erin, as well as some manufacturers and some of us measuring ourselves, anechoic data for lots of speakers is much more available these days. Toole (along with everybody else) is all in on EQing at higher frequencies based upon anechoic data. Kevin Voecks said a while back there isn't a single passive speaker they make--not even the highest end Revel speakers-- that can't be improved with EQ based upon the anechoic measurements.

If you have that knowledge and room EQ is the tool you have, there's no reason you can't make a speaker--even a good speaker--sound better with full range EQ. It may take some effort and a little bit of knowledge, but in my opinion if you want the best sound your speakers are capable of producing, EQing them based on anechoic data should be on your to-do list, even if Room EQ is the tool you'll use.

 

[Newman]

I chose my words carefully. “The general AVR RC products” are not the right tool to fine tune a speaker’s anechoic full range response.

If you use said products the way the manual says to use them, you will make a good speaker sound worse if you allow full range correction.

I know what you are trying to point out, and some-but-not-many of “the general AVR room correction products” will be awkward-but-usable as a proxy PEQ equaliser, and others will be either too crude to be much help, or totally useless.

A configurable parametric equaliser is the right tool, especially when combined with an audio analyser and calibrated mic. With that, one can make a good speaker better. Note that I never said “you can’t make a good speaker sound better with full range EQ”, did I?

 

[Jon AA]

and also for expressing it in a nice and constructive tone (instead of just blasting me, as some other members keep doing, for not following their instructions down to the letter, incl. getting a subwoofer, etc.)....

I'm sorry you feel members have been impolite, just please understand from our point of view, you have all the tools available to you to make that unit sound any way you want it to sound but you seem unwilling to even try to use them.

I'm not sure why the $20 app is so offensive, given most other brands that offer Dirac require about 10X that much for a license at least (or have that added onto the price). Good things aren't free. After extensive use of both, I say MultEQ-X for $200 is worth every single penny and more over the app.

As an olive branch, I'll say this: If you pony up for the MultEQ-X license (I'm just so tired of using the App, MultEQ-X is soooo much better) take the measurements (yes, at least 8, preferably twice that many) and email me the file, I would be happy to "fix things" for you and send it back along with detailed instructions on how to very easily change the amount of bass (without needing DEQ) so you can find exactly the amount you feel sounds the best.

In doing that simple process and playing with the software, you will learn a lot about your speakers and room and what calibration is all about. Hopefully that would be a launching point for you to make changes on your own in the future and get much better sound out of your system for years to come.

 

[Hobolicious]

Ouch, price on X4800H just released in Norway as well. 825 quid/925 USD/950 euro more expensive than X3800H here…

 

[delta76]

Ouch, price on X4800H just released in Norway as well. 825 quid/925 USD/950 euro more expensive than X3800H here…

isn't that known? it's $800 more expensive in the US, and then you need to add tax.

 

[Hobolicious]

isn't that known? it's $800 more expensive in the US, and then you need to add tax.

To a certain extent, but the X3800H is actually cheaper here than in the US, so was hoping the same would be true for X4800H, but it turned out to be the oppsite.

 

[delta76]

To a certain extent, but the X3800H is actually cheaper here than in the US, so was hoping the same would be true for X4800H, but it turned out to be the oppsite.

well I just check and preliminary price for x4800h is up also at the only denon retailer in my country. price difference is 922 EUR/900 USD at current exchange rate

 

[fyton2v]

For $800 bucks it seems you get:

- something called D.D.S.C HD digital.
- "clock jitter reducer"
- 20 wpc
- maybe more metal involved but the whole weight difference between the 3800 and 4800 is 1.5lbs.
- an extra line on the display.
- one extra HDMI port that will go used by 95% of the purchasing population.

Is Denon's DDSC worth $800?

 

[GalZohar]

As an olive branch, I'll say this: If you pony up for the MultEQ-X license (I'm just so tired of using the App, MultEQ-X is soooo much better) take the measurements (yes, at least 8, preferably twice that many) and email me the file, I would be happy to "fix things" for you and send it back along with detailed instructions on how to very easily change the amount of bass (without needing DEQ) so you can find exactly the amount you feel sounds the best.

How do you work around the problem that if you EQ only bass, and then boost bass in the target curve, it doesn't actually boost the bass (or doesn't boost it by much) as you're trying to boost the "entire range" (out of the EQ-enabled range, or at least a large portion of it)? Basically, if you EQ to 300Hz and boost bass up to 200Hz by 10db, it will actually not perform what you intended it to.
Do other EQ systems (Dirac, Arc) have similar limitations or do they work differently?
For Audyssey, I couldn't find anyone who managed to work around that.
I checked this by using a friend's MultEQ-X software with his measurements to try help him improve his sound.

 

[lc6]

I'm sorry you feel members have been impolite, just please understand from our point of view, you have all the tools available to you to make that unit sound any way you want it to sound but you seem unwilling to even try to use them.

I'm not sure why the $20 app is so offensive, given most other brands that offer Dirac require about 10X that much for a license at least (or have that added onto the price). Good things aren't free. After extensive use of both, I say MultEQ-X for $200 is worth every single penny and more over the app.

As an olive branch, I'll say this: If you pony up for the MultEQ-X license (I'm just so tired of using the App, MultEQ-X is soooo much better) take the measurements (yes, at least 8, preferably twice that many) and email me the file, I would be happy to "fix things" for you and send it back along with detailed instructions on how to very easily change the amount of bass (without needing DEQ) so you can find exactly the amount you feel sounds the best.

In doing that simple process and playing with the software, you will learn a lot about your speakers and room and what calibration is all about. Hopefully that would be a launching point for you to make changes on your own in the future and get much better sound out of your system for years to come.

I truly appreciate the offer, @Jon AA , but will have to pass on it at this time. Last night, there was a strange glitch in the system: I was in the middle of streaming The House of the Dragon on HBO, dragons were flying around in Atmos and suddenly, without me touching anything and no power blackout/brownout, the TV determined that the HDMI connection with the 3800H was gone, switched the source to the TV source and started streaming news. Normally, this takes a deliberate, multi-step action on the TV remote control. Since we all know that the first several months of production of a new model are always problematic, I have to be on the lookout for this and similar problems that would cause me to return the unit. Not only is the MultEQ-X app assigned to a particular AVR serial number, but also if I do not decide to keep the unit after all and instead go with another AVR brand, it would be several hundred dollars thrown away (I would also purchase a calibrated Audyssey mic for the MultEQ-X).

Besides, I am afraid that this enhanced app would not solve the bass issue for me. I have just painstakingly re-run the built-in Audyssey in all 8 positions exactly per the instructions. I would say the results are even worse than before, after I ran only 3 positions. If I were to characterize the resulting sound in one word, I would borrow it from the Dragons episode: "gelded." There is hardly any bass at all, even with the DEQ on and at 0 dB reference level; I tried both the Reference and Flat settings. With the L/R Bypass setting, there is some bass with the DEQ on, but it lacks the usual low-end "punch" I am so used to; basically, it is "boomy." As is clear from the REW measurements, all this DEQ does is shelf-up frequencies ~200 Hz and below and very slightly boost 10 kHz and above. After this full calibration, there is little improvement to the mids.

By now, I know everyone here will immediately blast me for not using the $20 app. But I doubt that it would improve things since it would essentially cause me to repeat the same measurements. I also do not want to throw away money if I decide to return the unit (as a matter of principle, since $20 is not a huge sum).

The Gene & Theo video on Audyssey tuning I previously cited confirms that, just like me, everyone else sees bass gone after calibration. They recommend disabling all enhancements, incl. the DEQ, and instead manually boosting bass by editing some "target curve," an error-prone endeavor that seems to defeat the whole point of automatic calibration. That would not work for me. I need the bass to work well over the range of, say, 55 dB (nighttime) to 85 dB (daytime workout when neighbors are away) volumes. A tweak of the target curve would achieve bass correction only at one particular volume level, so it would not function as a proper loudness control. The only workaround I see is to perform multiple adjustments of the curve and download them as separate presets to the AVR, to be then selected by the Quick Select 1..4 buttons on the remote. But that would be a discrete and coarse loudness adjustment which would have to be done manually every time the volume is changed. This would not be a workable solution for me.

The video also showed that even with the app, the AVR defaults to a "mid-range correction," which is a 3 dB or so "suck-out" around 2 kHz on the account of Denon's antiquated assumption that this is where the speakers have deficient FR due to the transition between the mid-range and tweeter. Apparently, this setting is not even visible on the AVR and it has to be manually disabled separately for each speaker before calibration; otherwise, vocals sound bad.

Moreover, the video said that the app does not sync-back settings from the AVR; apparently, it is a one-way street, and the upload of settings from the app to the AVR takes up to 60 seconds. If that and the previous "feature" are true, then I find this system to be seriously mis-designed. It is supposed to be a piece of user-friendly consumer electronics, not an experimental tweaking platform for mad enthusiasts.

One other thing I noticed with this AVR: I power it up first, wait for the speaker relays to click, then power up the TV and wait until it automatically starts streaming a news channel. Then I select the AVR HDMI port on the TV as the source. At that point, the AVR walks all of its HDMI inputs, as if trying to see what is connected to them. This has a side effect of powering up my BD player for no good reason; the AVR should simply go directly to the Aux2 input where the Amazon Fire Stick HD is attached and was last used. I am unable to find any setting that would set this port as the default one to prevent this port walk.

I will keep evaluating the 3800H, but at this point I doubt it will meet my needs. The power meter is supposed to arrive tomorrow, so I should be able to take some measurements and report them.

 

[GalZohar]

If you return the unit, your options for something that will provide similar capability of variable loudness compensation are actually very limited. If DEQ didn't work for you, most likely the others won't either, and you'll have to resort to the target curve method (which as you said, is only balanced for 1 volume level), which is possible both with Audyssey XT32 as well as higher end devices that don't have DEQ or other loudness compensation.

Without EQ (L/R bypass or just without Audyssey at all), boomy bass is to be expected. Specifically with L/R bypass, the peaks/dips of your mains are enforced on your surrounds, which can make matters even worse.

As for the powering on/off through HDMI, as far as I'm aware it's not a Denon-specific issue, and is a pretty messy feature in other brands as well.

Without a umik-1 and REW it's difficult to say what you need to do to get better sound, except it seems like the most basic steps would be the 20$ app to limit the EQ range and use Dynamic EQ with the appropriate reference level offset for your content (movies basically always on 0, most other things usually 10).

Note that when you work out, calibration and balance (DEQ, target curve or otherwise) get almost completely thrown out the window, as bass response changes when you move away from the main listening position, and the overall level is much lower when your distance from the speakers increases. This isn't specific to any calibration system, and you just can't get properly tuned sound while working out and pretty much need to live with what you get. While you could create a separate profile with appropriate measurements for your workout area, although that's probably overkill.

Overall it seems like none of your issues with the unit are actually with the unit, and would be just as likely to be a problem with other brands, maybe even super high end ones that also require understanding of the calibration process.

 

[Ten42]

There is hardly any bass at all, even with the DEQ on and at 0 dB reference level;

Why do you keep complaining about no bass when you insist on using the default curves which are flat as cutting boards in the bass region?

They recommend disabling all enhancements, incl. the DEQ, and instead manually boosting bass by editing some "target curve"

Is the idea of no loudness correction that bad? I run a 20dB shelf at 20Hz that slopes down to 0 at 100Hz and music sounds equally great when listening loud or quiet. Given that it's not possible to use loudness correction with my speaker setup, but I've tried it on my headphone setup (I run roughly the same bass boost on both) through EqualizerAPO and I had to turn the loudness correction effect way down or it would sound weird to my ears.

 

[peng]

I truly appreciate the offer, @Jon AA , but will have to pass on it at this time. Last night, there was a strange glitch in the system: I was in the middle of streaming The House of the Dragon on HBO, dragons were flying around in Atmos and suddenly, without me touching anything and no power blackout/brownout, the TV determined that the HDMI connection with the 3800H was gone, switched the source to the TV source and started streaming news. Normally, this takes a deliberate, multi-step action on the TV remote control. Since we all know that the first several months of production of a new model are always problematic, I have to be on the lookout for this and similar problems that would cause me to return the unit. Not only is the MultEQ-X app assigned to a particular AVR serial number, but also if I do not decide to keep the unit after all and instead go with another AVR brand, it would be several hundred dollars thrown away (I would also purchase a calibrated Audyssey mic for the MultEQ-X).

Besides, I am afraid that this enhanced app would not solve the bass issue for me. I have just painstakingly re-run the built-in Audyssey in all 8 positions exactly per the instructions. I would say the results are even worse than before, after I ran only 3 positions. If I were to characterize the resulting sound in one word, I would borrow it from the Dragons episode: "gelded." There is hardly any bass at all, even with the DEQ on and at 0 dB reference level; I tried both the Reference and Flat settings. With the L/R Bypass setting, there is some bass with the DEQ on, but it lacks the usual low-end "punch" I am so used to; basically, it is "boomy." As is clear from the REW measurements, all this DEQ does is shelf-up frequencies ~200 Hz and below and very slightly boost 10 kHz and above. After this full calibration, there is little improvement to the mids.

By now, I know everyone here will immediately blast me for not using the $20 app. But I doubt that it would improve things since it would essentially cause me to repeat the same measurements. I also do not want to throw away money if I decide to return the unit (as a matter of principle, since $20 is not a huge sum).

The Gene & Theo video on Audyssey tuning I previously cited confirms that, just like me, everyone else sees bass gone after calibration. They recommend disabling all enhancements, incl. the DEQ, and instead manually boosting bass by editing some "target curve," an error-prone endeavor that seems to defeat the whole point of automatic calibration. That would not work for me. I need the bass to work well over the range of, say, 55 dB (nighttime) to 85 dB (daytime workout when neighbors are away) volumes. A tweak of the target curve would achieve bass correction only at one particular volume level, so it would not function as a proper loudness control. The only workaround I see is to perform multiple adjustments of the curve and download them as separate presets to the AVR, to be then selected by the Quick Select 1..4 buttons on the remote. But that would be a discrete and coarse loudness adjustment which would have to be done manually every time the volume is changed. This would not be a workable solution for me.

The video also showed that even with the app, the AVR defaults to a "mid-range correction," which is a 3 dB or so "suck-out" around 2 kHz on the account of Denon's antiquated assumption that this is where the speakers have deficient FR due to the transition between the mid-range and tweeter. Apparently, this setting is not even visible on the AVR and it has to be manually disabled separately for each speaker before calibration; otherwise, vocals sound bad.

Moreover, the video said that the app does not sync-back settings from the AVR; apparently, it is a one-way street, and the upload of settings from the app to the AVR takes up to 60 seconds. If that and the previous "feature" are true, then I find this system to be seriously mis-designed. It is supposed to be a piece of user-friendly consumer electronics, not an experimental tweaking platform for mad enthusiasts.

One other thing I noticed with this AVR: I power it up first, wait for the speaker relays to click, then power up the TV and wait until it automatically starts streaming a news channel. Then I select the AVR HDMI port on the TV as the source. At that point, the AVR walks all of its HDMI inputs, as if trying to see what is connected to them. This has a side effect of powering up my BD player for no good reason; the AVR should simply go directly to the Aux2 input where the Amazon Fire Stick HD is attached and was last used. I am unable to find any setting that would set this port as the default one to prevent this port walk.

I will keep evaluating the 3800H, but at this point I doubt it will meet my needs. The power meter is supposed to arrive tomorrow, so I should be able to take some measurements and report them.

I have to wonder what your speaker's in room response would be like with Audyssey reference versus Audyssey off.

It may be possible that you happened to have a lot of room gain that you like and Audyssey took them away from you.

Below is one set of graphs I have that show between about 50 to 150 Hz, lots of bass was removed by Audyssey. Without those big bumps, it sounded better to me, but a lot of people prefer those bumps that are free, courtesy of the room.

I found another example, in this case, you can see tons of low bass between 20 and 30 Hz were levelled.

If that's the reason though, you should have your bass back by turning Audyssey off, or use direct/pure direct mode.

If you are going to return the Denon, you may want to consider an Anthem. If I understood it right, Anthem's default target curve would not remove room gain, or not completely.

 

[lc6]

If you return the unit, your options for something that will provide similar capability of variable loudness compensation are actually very limited. If DEQ didn't work for you, most likely the others won't either, and you'll have to resort to the target curve method (which as you said, is only balanced for 1 volume level), which is possible both with Audyssey XT32 as well as higher end devices that don't have DEQ or other loudness compensation.

[...]

Overall it seems like none of your issues with the unit are actually with the unit, and would be just as likely to be a problem with other brands, maybe even super high end ones that also require understanding of the calibration process.

That is actually not true. When I evaluated the Yamaha RX-A6A back in March, I did not experience any such major issues with loudness compensation (a standard feature successfully implemented in various amps for many decades!) as with the DEQ now, in the same room/speaker setup. Music sounded naturally, although I tested only CDs and not a wide variety of streamed tracks at that time.
(As a side note, since this is a D/M thread: The main reason I did not keep the A6A at that time was that whenever a new source material with surround encoding (such as a Netflix movie in 5.1) started streaming via HDMI or optical, the AVR engaged in a prolonged format identification and did not play the first 10-15 seconds or so of the show, which required manual rewinding. Since then, I have seen some indications that this sound gap was somewhat reduced via firmware upgrades. Also, at that time the support for HDMI 2.1 was not available as promised via a firmware upgrade, and I had received an indication from customer support that a hardware upgrade at a service center might be required. Then the first firmware fix for HDMI 2.1 was released in May and the second one in August.)

Without EQ (L/R bypass or just without Audyssey at all), boomy bass is to be expected. Specifically with L/R bypass, the peaks/dips of your mains are enforced on your surrounds, which can make matters even worse.

Sorry, but that is not my experience in this setup. My old Yamaha AVR does not have an EQ at all and only has a non-selectable loudness compensation, yet the music and movies played by it do sound natural, and the bass is reasonably deep and punchy, but not boomy. As for your second point, I would prefer to use the D/M Reference or Flat mode after measurements, but only with a good-sounding loudness compensation that in the process does not elevate the full-range level of the surround (which, as we have all seen in two independent REW measurements, the DEQ does and hence screws up the scene balance).

As for the powering on/off through HDMI, as far as I'm aware it's not a Denon-specific issue, and is a pretty messy feature in other brands as well.

Without a umik-1 and REW it's difficult to say what you need to do to get better sound, except it seems like the most basic steps would be the 20$ app to limit the EQ range and use Dynamic EQ with the appropriate reference level offset for your content (movies basically always on 0, most other things usually 10).

I have tried all 4 DEQ refence levels before (after a 3-position measurement) and today (after an 8-position one). Neither produced a satisfactory result.
I intend to get the UMIK-1 or equivalent in the near future, and try it with the REW.

Note that when you work out, calibration and balance (DEQ, target curve or otherwise) get almost completely thrown out the window, as bass response changes when you move away from the main listening position, and the overall level is much lower when your distance from the speakers increases. This isn't specific to any calibration system, and you just can't get properly tuned sound while working out and pretty much need to live with what you get. While you could create a separate profile with appropriate measurements for your workout area, although that's probably overkill.

With the old AVR, when I crank up the volume to better hear the music during workout, bass does remain deep and punchy. I do not expect a primary-listening-position concert-grade experience during workout, but I do not expect an unpleasant boomy bass sensation.

BTW, one of the streaming test tracks I would recommend is Terje Isungset's Fading Sun. First, listen to it on headphones that have a good bass extension. You should hear two deep "thumps" at the beginning, the second deeper than the first (I did not conduct a spectral analysis to see how deep they go, but I would guess 20-25 Hz). Then try the same track on your app-tweaked D/M speaker setup. Do you hear the same? Probably, if you have big subwoofer(s). (Also try Terje's other tracks from this Winter Songs and other albums. They have similar "ice sound" effects.) With the old AVR and no subwoofer, my mains easily reproduce this deep bass effect and make it pleasant. With the 3800H even with the DEQ on at 0 dB setting, it is virtually non-existent, especially after today's 8-position tune-up. In case this again comes up, when playing this test material the 3800H does display the source as Stereo and knows there is no subwoofer in the system, so it should direct all bass to the front L/Rs.

I still have to try streaming Amazon Ultra HD to the 3800H using the (free) HEOS app. My hope is that, unlike with the Fire Stick HD, the detected "device capability" will be higher than 16 bits. If not, then unfortunately it another major drawback for me.

I do appreciate everyone's patience and constructive comments on this thread.

 

[Yogurt]

I want you to confirm if Audyssey will work all 3 of your subs or if it's only for Bass Control. Please!

Sorry for the late reply. Just setting things up finally. Audyssey measured each sub independently, gain matched them, and then proceeded with the audyssey setup. I'm pretty impressed with the outcome on the first go. I have both the $20 app and the more expensive app with microphone. I want to try each and take some readings with Rew to see how it's doing. I'll start a new thread for that

 

[dlaloum]

For $800 bucks it seems you get:

- something called D.D.S.C HD digital.
- "clock jitter reducer"
- 20 wpc
- maybe more metal involved but the whole weight difference between the 3800 and 4800 is 1.5lbs.
- an extra line on the display.
- one extra HDMI port that will go used by 95% of the purchasing population.

Is Denon's DDSC worth $800?

It thought it also received a slightly larger power supply & larger capacitor capacity?
And individual power amp board for each channel, rather than having larger multi-channel boards.... it would be interesting to find out whether the amp boards in the X4800 are the same as the boards in the A1H.... (it could be, with power limited by lower voltage power supply...)

 

[Bimbleton]

If I may ask a general Denon question — how is the RMA process? I’ve got an X3700H 2 years into its lifespan, and I’ve (finally) pinpointed that the off center imaging is due to the receiver.

Having heard terror stories of the Denon RMA process, just wanted to ask if anyone has any tips. The issue is subtle, but noticeable; however, I’m worried I’ll spend a lot of money shipping it only for nothing to get fixed at all.

Thanks.

 

[Masza]

How are the speaker measurements before and after Audyssey @lc6? You mentioned that DEQ operation was clear on REW measurements.

 

[jhaider]

Also if you aren’t using the MultEQ app, I recommend trying Flat setting instead of Reference. It gets rid of the default midrange dip that Audyssey adds and sounds a lot better on most speakers.

Oh God please no! A flat listening position response only sounds good to people with massive hearing loss. It's also very dangerous to tweeters. I've measured more than 6dB HF boost.

I don't think flat disables MRC. You need to app to do it, flat or not.

Ditching the dip is the only good thing "flat" does.

 

[jhaider]

If you use said products the way the manual says to use them, you will make a good speaker sound worse if you allow full range correction.

That's the theory, and in practice it bears out with 2.subs channel systems, IMO. However, I must say my experience with 7.subs surround and 7.subs.4 immersive is that full-range correction usually sounds better, provided the target curve reasonably fits the MF/HF response captured by the microphone placement. (That will generally be the case any with good speakers well placed in a normal living room, and a reasonable target curve.)

That holds true even when identical or substantially similar loudspeakers are used in the side and rear positions. (Can't say I've ever tried identical heights.) I don't know if it holds true when using speakers designed to engineering targets other than flattish and smooth on axis and smooth off axis response, because that kind of effects generator is out of the scope of my experience.