Chord DAVE Review (DAC & HP Amp)

[brandall10]

lol
View attachment 220403

I don't think there's a single review source out there that has said the DAVE and M-Scaler are less than excellent.

And these products are at least 5 years old... tons of folks, tons of review source, are saying they're absolutely worth the spend. These have been top of the food chain products for years now.

 

[Jomungur]

Nothing is more boring than DACs. They reached commodity point long ago. Audiophiles still want new stuff to fiddle with though, so they keep stuffing them in new boxes

Hmm...I get the band is narrower than what most people think, but is this statement right? By commodity point I understand you to mean they are essentially interchangeable. You feel there's no difference in sound quality between the highest rated DAC on Amir's list and the lowest?

 

[AudioSceptic]

I pulled them from Stereophile which came up toward the to of a google search at 7 kg, possibly that's with the stand.

Just wanted to refute the notion about packaging or being chintzy looking. People ooh and ahh over this thing in person.

EDIT: Amir noted: "On the positive front, the unit is quite heavy and substantial."

Yes, but when the maker's website is so accessible, why not use it?

 

[brandall10]

Hmm...I get the band is narrower than what most people think, but is this statement right? By commodity point I understand you to mean they are essentially interchangeable. You feel there's no difference in sound quality between the highest rated DAC on Amir's list and the lowest?

Commodity is related to cost and availability, that you can get top-level performance for little spend - ie. it's no longer in the realm of luxury. As Amir says about this particular DAC "It is bested easily by DACs at $150."

You can of course get terrible performing DACs, but that seems to be at any price level because of companies that drink from the well of audiophile juju and don't do proper engineering. The lowest measuring DACs do have audible issues, but once you get to the middle tier those probably would fail a blind test. And in the upper tier you have many that are rather cheap.

But because audiophile stuff runs on some notion of magic - in the minds of audiophiles that is - something like a DAC will always be exciting. It will never be seen as a solved engineering exercise because somehow certain things can't be measured, allegedly.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Hmm...I get the band is narrower than what most people think, but is this statement right? By commodity point I understand you to mean they are essentially interchangeable. You feel there's no difference in sound quality between the highest rated DAC on Amir's list and the lowest?

It seems to be the common belief here on ASR.
When I too, questioned it sarcastically, Amir replied, basically saying, yeah, they are.
So there you go.

 

[tmtomh]

It seems to be the common belief here on ASR.
When I too, questioned it sarcastically, Amir replied, basically saying, yeah, they are.
So there you go.

No, that’s not the view. The view is that when it comes to parameters where the audibility threshold is well-established, products meeting or besting that threshold will all sound audibly transparent aka the same, all other things being equal.

 

[AudioSceptic]

Hmm...I get the band is narrower than what most people think, but is this statement right? By commodity point I understand you to mean they are essentially interchangeable. You feel there's no difference in sound quality between the highest rated DAC on Amir's list and the lowest?

Do we *know* (proper blind test, multiple trials, etc.) that any DAC with SINAD above, say, 100 can be distinguished from any other?

 

[Jimbob54]

Do we *know* (proper blind test, multiple trials, etc.) that any DAC with SINAD above, say, 100 can be distinguished from any other?

Hundreds of headfi regulars can't be wrong, can they?

 

[PeteL]

For people who think "hi-res" matters. So for no one who did blind tests.

Some may say that Hi Res Matter because it allows for easier to implement lower steepness filters without any aliasing in the audible band.

 

[BDWoody]

By commodity point I understand you to mean they are essentially interchangeable. You feel there's no difference in sound quality between the highest rated DAC on Amir's list and the lowest?

Maybe not some of the particularly horrible ones, but assuming they were properly chosen for the task at hand, and aren't broken by fault or design, then yes.

Despite the confident claims made, and despite the fame and fortune that would follow such a properly conducted blind test, no one has provided evidence to the contrary.

If Chord produced an acceptable test showing its products are preferred over the competition, many here would buy them, if only to try to figure out why. I would.

The responses to requests for evidence generally center around them just being too hard, so it shouldn't be expected. Crowdsourced claims are not the same as evidence.

 

[tmtomh]

Do we *know* (proper blind test, multiple trials, etc.) that any DAC with SINAD above, say, 100 can be distinguished from any other?

That’s a good question. I believe we know that the threshold for human audibility is about -115dB. I also think there is data that can provide guidance on a lesser, more practical threshold that might be around 100dB or less, but I will leave it to others more knowledgeable than me to comment with info on that.

 

[AudioSceptic]

Hundreds of headfi regulars can't be wrong, can they?

<Chortle>

 

[brandall10]

No, that’s not the view. The view is that when it comes to parameters where the audibility threshold is well-established, products meeting or besting that threshold will all sound audibly transparent aka the same, all other things being equal.

DAC development being commoditized is definitely a view here as well - as Amir states point blank in his review, you can get DACs that best this in measurements for $150.

Commodity is all about cost and availability, that it is no longer a luxury. We're not only getting things that arguably exceed audibility for cheap, we're getting units verifiably functioning toward the top of engineering excellence for cheap.

That latter bit is more important IME and it removes any subjectivity or the need for blind tests, etc. While it is possible human hearing can detect differences at the tippy-top of what measurements reveal, it still is a fact that current cheap options function toward the top of what measurements provide.

 

[welsh]

I certainly understand the need to differentiate in the high-end market, but damn, Chord products really take the cake when it comes to awful product aesthetic and lack of ergonomics. It looks like a bad sci-fi prop from '70s Doctor Who series.

Here is the next Chord product, The Chord Dalek CD-Player:

But Daleks would be unable to use it. Daleks can only stream music. That sink-plunger appendage is useless for handling CDs or vinyl, and using the ray-gun will void any warranty.

 

[AudioSceptic]

That’s a good question. I believe we know that the threshold for human audibility is about -115dB. I also think there is data that can provide guidance on a lesser, more practical threshold that might be around 100dB or less, but I will leave it to others more knowledgeable than me to comment with info on that.

That's my feeling too. The issue is that real, useful, data like this is hard to find in forums where you'd think it would be of great interest.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

No, that’s not the view. The view is that when it comes to parameters where the audibility threshold is well-established, products meeting or besting that threshold will all sound audibly transparent aka the same, all other things being equal.

You say to-may-to, I say to-ma-to.
Must be my accent.

 

[AudioSceptic]

DAC development being commoditized is definitely a view here as well - as Amir states point blank in his review, you can get DACs that best this in measurements for $150.

Commodity is all about cost and availability, that it is no longer a luxury. We're not only getting things that arguably exceed audibility for cheap, we're getting units verifiably functioning toward the top of engineering excellence for cheap.

That latter bit is more important IME and it removes any subjectivity or the need for blind tests, etc.

Do we know that blind tests are not required? Beyond what point?

 

[solderdude]

HF Filter On or Off – This turns on a sharp high frequency cutoff filter set at 60kHz. This filter
bandwidth limits higher sample rate recordings to reduce noise shaper noise from the ADC.You may
find that the noise will degrade the sound quality by increasing noise floor modulation as the out of
bandwidth noise causes intermodulation distortion with the wanted audio signal in the analogue
electronics. By activating the HF Filter it is likely that you will hear a positive effect upon the resulting
sound quality.

Yeah right... the slope you see is indeed -3dB at 90kHz (probably with the filter 'off').
At 150kHz the attenuation is 'merely' -10dB. This is when one is using 384kHz recordings.
At 192kHz recordings (most high res. is just that) there is a very steep reconstruction filter removing all noise above 70kHz but the special filter only lowers 60kHz by -1dB.
At 96kHz nothing is present above 38kHz... so yeah great explanation from the grand wizard. That is if you believe.....

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Yeah right... the slope you see is indeed -3dB at 60kHz.
So... it is supposed to reduce noise from the ADC (so in the recording).
At 150kHz the attenuation is 'merely' -10dB.
This is when one is using 384kHz recordings. At 192kHz recordings (most high res is just that) there is a very steep reconstruction filter removing all noise above that.
At 96kHz nothing is present above 38kHz... so yeah great explanation from the grand wizard. That is if you believe.....

What do you mean?
I checked your link, I don't think that graph is with HF filter being ON. Don't think there is a graph with filter ON.

 

[solderdude]

The 'filter' in on position just slides it slightly to the left but same steepness.
filter on, filter off ..

20kHz -1dB (on) and 60kHz -1dB = 'off'
It is just shifted to the left.