Stereophile's snide editorial on ASR and Amir

[kokakolia]

Yes, these editorials are signs that the ASR approach in general, and ASR in particular, are making inroads (not to mention generating traffic and views well in excess of what much of the established audiophile press gets). The Stereophile piece is more defensive and disingenuous, while TAS piece is more thoughtful and generous in its approach and tone.

The Stereophile piece’s tone and content is in my view a product of its author. Jim Austin is, in my personal opinion, a self-important dilettante who knows precious little about the technical issues and seems to think he can effectively fake his way through it, which this latest piece shows he cannot. Say what you will about John Atkinson, but he knows his stuff technically. So too does the fair-minded and ever-gracious @Kal Rubinson . I have seen exactly zero evidence that Austin knows much of anything about the technical aspects.

For its part, Robinson’s piece has a fundamental logical flaw: if you take measurements, you still have to communicate their meaning in words, so we at TAS have decided to cut out the middleman and just start with the words - never mind that words unanchored to measurements are impressionistic at best and meaningless at worst when it comes to communicating the performance of hi-fi equipment.

But at least Robinson doesn’t make invidious distinctions or sling insults as Austin does.

Oh - and as for the argument that it’s fair game for these outlets to attack ASR since we attack them, I agree that there’s no point in getting worked up or offended about these snide swipes at ASR. But I do think a couple of points should be kept in mind:

1. These mainstream magazines seem to be referring to the most simplistic and thoughtless comments that get posted on this forum - but they use them to attack @amirm himself. That’s bush-league and deserving of whatever scorn members here wish to express.

2. They also regularly misrepresent what Amir/ASR actually does in reviews/tests, whereas Amir critiques them based on what they actually say and do. The old political saying is therefore quite apt here: “If you stop telling lies about me, then I’ll stop telling the truth about you.”

You're tooting the ASR horn.

To me it's clear that Stereophile is misrepresenting ASR (if they're representing ASR at all, other measurements driven forums exist). It's also clear that ASR is misrepresenting Stereophile.

This quarrel shows a lack of understanding between both camps.

And funnily enough, Stereophile seems more noble because they only vaguely mention a group of people obsessed with measurements, not ASR specifically.

ASR just looks bad in this quarrel and is overreacting against Stereophile.

 

[Audiofire]

You're tooting the ASR horn.

To me it's clear that Stereophile is misrepresenting ASR (if they're representing ASR at all, other measurements driven forums exist). It's also clear that ASR is misrepresenting Stereophile.

This quarrel shows a lack of understanding between both camps.

And funnily enough, Stereophile seems more noble because they only vaguely mention a group of people obsessed with measurements, not ASR specifically.

ASR just looks bad in this quarrel and is overreacting against Stereophile.

No, because Stereophile are clearly not experts in using an Audio Precision analyzer and other relevant data in reviews.

 

[amirm]

ASR just looks bad in this quarrel and is overreacting against Stereophile.

Outrage against rude statements made by an editor regarding me/site is a natural response from membership. What do you expect us to do? Sit there and make it look like they were right?

I think Jim Austin needs to act more professionally and not take pot shots like this in a formal format that he works in. The editorial was poorly thought out across the board with no value to anyone reading it. He didn't fact check Purifi's relationship with us, who they really are and of course, what we do. He needs to understand that all of this makes it easy for us to criticize him for poorly done job as an editorial.

 

[voodooless]

And funnily enough, Stereophile seems more noble because they only vaguely mention a group of people obsessed with measurements, not ASR specifically.

That’s not noble, it cowardly! If you have beef with something, call it by name! The only reason not to name ASR is to not direct attention to it.

 

[Katji]

NB, the key word in this thread title - snide.

 

[Audiofire]

I think Jim Austin needs to act more professionally and not take pot shots like this in a formal format that he works in.

I'm not sure Jim was aware that defensive attribution is a predictable bias for people who are feeling insecure or exposed.

 

[pablolie]

22 pages into this... let's be aware Stereophile didn't specifically target ASR, and that over-reacting to their infantile simplification about "objectivism" sounds a bit like "mea culpa"...
If in real life anyone made a weird, remote allusion to me being this-and-that, I'd simply ignore it... because that's a more powerful attitude of telling the originator how little I care about their small-minded incompetence.

PS: I already canceled my "Absolute Sound" subscription over their idiotic over-the-top editorials ("the law of INCREASING results [the more you spend]" etc) and sadly with this writing, I'll just vote with my valet and cancel my long Stereophile subscription as well. They don't seem to be able to do well with a world that has become more egalitarian in opinion building and evaluating, or maybe it's because they are now in editorial synch with the Absolute Sound bullcrap... I feel sorry for some of the guys in Stereophile ((they existed and exist) that have always made sense, you know who they are. I work in high tech, and we don't get away with writing flowery prose or claim authority in what's best when our customers -all engineers- don't see the benefits. It keeps us real and I like it, as much as it means living on the cruel edge of success and failure when your customers can easily tell if your new product is really worth it.

PS2: These very specialized publications better realize we just read them for entertainment value, and that their being preachy is completely off-putting and even insulting to an informed audience. I like to see the pics of gear, and I can enjoy decent writing and discern the BS for the sake of it... but NEVER EVER try to tell me how to think and impose your opinions on me. I love ASR because despite its focus on measurements, no one judges you if you think some of those are irrelevant to your particular use case and therefore you disagree with the subjective recommendation at the end of the review.

 

[TSB]

Good engineers absolutley do all of the above. Maybe you're confused about the distinction between real engineers and those who only have "Engineer" in their title but do no real engineering work. I've known many of them in my career.

The engineers that design and build audio equipment do not publish their designs for peer-review. Yes, engineering does have a scientific discipline, and lots of engineers in R&D do contribute to that field. Audio engineers do also publish when they find something new. But that's a different beast from what we are talking about here: building devices for the consumer market. It's similar to the distinction between software engineering and computer science. A guy at google might publish his newly discovered algorithm, but that's doesn't mean that in his day job as a software dev he is practicing computer science.

Most scientific work is also anonymous. The "publish or perish" thing is mostly confined to academia.

I don't understand this comment, I've never seen an anonymous paper in physics&mathematics, is this common in other fields?

If they do their own product design then obviously they understand how their products work.

Sure, on about the same level as the consumer who buys it. "If you turn this knob, a light goes on." Not on the level of engineering. Many would be a fire hazard if we took those designs literally. This is not a bad thing BTW, that's why the company pays our engineers.

 

[AndrewC]

I think Jim Austin needs to act more professionally and not take pot shots like this in a formal format that he works in.

Jim cut his teeth on AudioAsylum going back nearly 2 decades ago. Looks like he hasn't quite shaken off the lunacy

 

[theREALdotnet]

Jim cut his teeth on AudioAsylum going back nearly 2 decades ago. Looks like he hasn't quite shaken off the lunacy

The worst asylums are those where they make you think you work there

 

[RayDunzl]

Can I make thorough measurements with an oscilloscope and loopback testing through a high-end audio interface, or do I need a spectrum analyzer (or something else)?

You can get your feet wet with an interface (and or measurement microphone) to capture data and software such as the excellent Room EQ Wizard to analyze the capture in real time and after the fact.

It's enough for amateur use.

I have and occasionally use a Focusrite interface, a UMIK-1, and REW.

 

[vert]

Oh gosh
This is tough and unfair for our host, yet it is a sure sign he's making his mark. A few years ago when I decided to take a serious look at audio quality I could have been an easy prey for the likes of Stereosnob. Right around that time Amir and Audio Science Review came online, a real life saver. They're angry because their economic model is threatened, I would look no further. My desk system which cost 1/5 to 1/20th compared to their typical budget I'm sure would have the stereosnobs pinch and turn up their nose. Yet there's not a thing to change in it unless something breaks down, a distant scenario. The only difference between them and I is peace of mind, not sound quality.

 

[pma]

The point I made was not about the frequency response (i.e. amplitude and phase response) of a device, but about the spectral plot of a signal. Two signals, in fact, that have identical spectral content yet different waveforms.

This statement is absolutely correct. Below please see 2 signals with the same, equivalent amplitude frequency spectrum, but they do differ in phase of individual signal components. The result is a big difference in peak amplitude of the time domain plot and, of course, a big danger of clipping with the second signal. This may easily happen in long-lasting low frequency signals. Low frequency AC coupled square may have up to 2x higher amplitude compared to the original square. Click on the thumbnail to see the full image.

 

[Rednaxela]

Is there a solution to this creeping complexity?

Of course. Just simplify.

I’m afraid however that it is his own narrative that got him into this situation, and that it’s also what’s keeping him from getting out of it.

 

[kokakolia]

22 pages into this... let's be aware Stereophile didn't specifically target ASR, and that over-reacting to their infantile simplification about "objectivism" sounds a bit like "mea culpa"...
If in real life anyone made a weird, remote allusion to me being this-and-that, I'd simply ignore it... because that's a more powerful attitude of telling the originator how little I care about their small-minded incompetence.

This infantile simplification of "objectivism" is interesting to me.

It's like Stereophile believe that they found the "perfect" system to listen to music without worrying about the individual components and how they deteroriate the sound.

Trusting reputable companies who spare no expenses seems to be the fastest way to reach that goal. You expect the highest performance and best service from the most expensive components. At this point you're not worried about measurements and raw data, you pay for perfection. In that sense Stereophile can never be wrong by only recommending the most prestigious and expensive equipment. It better be good for the price.

The best way to annoy the Stereophile reader is to present to them a very competent system with off-the-shelf "affordable" components with convenient features.

- High end gear is so bulky and impractical. Think many boxes and cable salad: pre-amps, amps, tubes, phono stages, DACs, turnatables, power conditioners, cables, cable risers etc...
- The price is eye-watering
- Heat problems with Class A and tubes
- Complexity

If you can approximate the performance of a $50,000 hi-fi system with affordable & convenient components then Stereophile won't have a reason to exist. However, talking about Stereophile will only give them positive attention.

For ASR to be in the big leagues, they should have a reference system which commands respect from both the objectivist and subjectivist crowd. Then compare all equipment to that reference system (in addition to measurements and data). You bet that Stereophile will panic that way.

 

[Rednaxela]

For ASR to be in the big leagues […]

Huh?

ASR is the big league.

 

[Rednaxela]

Joking aside, ASR does not seek respect for the setups they could assemble with the insights they have on the technical performance of the evaluated components.

 

[theREALdotnet]

I suppose the Genelec 8361A commands respect technologically, price-wise and physically

 

[Rednaxela]

And it’s a great option for simplification too!

 

[HuubFranssen]

I did read the article but I don’t see anything wrong. ASR is not mentioned and, to be honest, some reactions on forums are quite narrow-minded indeed. I hear a clear difference between a Topping D90se and an RME ADI-2 fs, both being superb. Amir must know that. That is something that cannot be said here, some people will jump on it immediately.

At the other hand, I love the measurements as second opinion. I would never buy poor measuring gear anymore BUT i want to have a subjective opinion too. Last week I bought the lovely (and ugly) Neumann KH420’s, relatively cheap in Europe. Because I wanted pure analog powered speakers and because Amir loved them (and I once owned the KH310).

The truth is out there, but not in the mind of a single person.